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allanb4570 Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 41 Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:57 am Post subject: Bus Trans to a Type 1 |
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hotratz wrote: |
If you understand how the no hop works they are pretty simple to build. You will however have to completely disassemble your gear boxes and press the tubes off to get the "over axle tube" onto the original axle tube and also shorten the axle tube snout on the inner gear case half to make the spring plate line up correctly. Also since your present spring plates bolt under the axle to the gearbox you will need to set it up like a type one with the axle tube going through the spring plate. (type 1 spring plate) |
Can I ask, when you shorten the axle tubes to get the spring plate to line up correctly, and fit the axle tube going through the spring plate, did you have to modify / shorten the axle also? _________________ "Owner of German Engineering from the bottom up!"
1954 VW Type 1 (Sold)
1959 VW Type 1
1971 Super Beetle
1995 Mercedes Benz E420
2004 BMW 745Li |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Bus Trans to a Type 1 |
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allanb4570 wrote: |
hotratz wrote: |
If you understand how the no hop works they are pretty simple to build. You will however have to completely disassemble your gear boxes and press the tubes off to get the "over axle tube" onto the original axle tube and also shorten the axle tube snout on the inner gear case half to make the spring plate line up correctly. Also since your present spring plates bolt under the axle to the gearbox you will need to set it up like a type one with the axle tube going through the spring plate. (type 1 spring plate) |
Can I ask, when you shorten the axle tubes to get the spring plate to line up correctly, and fit the axle tube going through the spring plate, did you have to modify / shorten the axle also? |
Check out page 2 of my build thread. I have a lot of pictures and explaination of exactly what it take to use a john johnson style no hop kit.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=20 _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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bdkw1 Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2008 Posts: 798 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: Bus Trans to a Type 1 |
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allanb4570 wrote: |
hotratz wrote: |
If you understand how the no hop works they are pretty simple to build. You will however have to completely disassemble your gear boxes and press the tubes off to get the "over axle tube" onto the original axle tube and also shorten the axle tube snout on the inner gear case half to make the spring plate line up correctly. Also since your present spring plates bolt under the axle to the gearbox you will need to set it up like a type one with the axle tube going through the spring plate. (type 1 spring plate) |
Can I ask, when you shorten the axle tubes to get the spring plate to line up correctly, and fit the axle tube going through the spring plate, did you have to modify / shorten the axle also? |
You don't shorten the axle tube, you clearance the gearbox housing the clear the spring plate bolts. |
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allanb4570 Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 41 Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Bus Trans to a Type 1 |
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bdkw1 wrote: |
allanb4570 wrote: |
hotratz wrote: |
If you understand how the no hop works they are pretty simple to build. You will however have to completely disassemble your gear boxes and press the tubes off to get the "over axle tube" onto the original axle tube and also shorten the axle tube snout on the inner gear case half to make the spring plate line up correctly. Also since your present spring plates bolt under the axle to the gearbox you will need to set it up like a type one with the axle tube going through the spring plate. (type 1 spring plate) |
Can I ask, when you shorten the axle tubes to get the spring plate to line up correctly, and fit the axle tube going through the spring plate, did you have to modify / shorten the axle also? |
You don't shorten the axle tube, you clearance the gearbox housing the clear the spring plate bolts. |
Yea, it finally dawn on me the whole concept of shortening the snout on the gearbox housing to allow the correct alignment of the type 1 spring plates! I'm old and I'm slow _________________ "Owner of German Engineering from the bottom up!"
1954 VW Type 1 (Sold)
1959 VW Type 1
1971 Super Beetle
1995 Mercedes Benz E420
2004 BMW 745Li |
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JDub113 Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2009 Posts: 758 Location: Reno
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Russ Wolfe wrote: |
One thing to remember about redux boxes, that small nut redux boxes had a reduction ratio of 1.4:1, and the big nut boxes had a ratio of 1.2:1.
So using an early box will slow you way down. |
And the early box is the small nut correct?
I believe I read that you can swap a large nut box for a small nut box? |
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Vanhag Samba Mortician
Joined: June 29, 2003 Posts: 2606 Location: Desert Coast
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Russ Wolfe wrote: |
One thing to remember about redux boxes, that small nut redux boxes had a reduction ratio of 1.4:1, and the big nut boxes had a ratio of 1.2:1.
So using an early box will slow you way down. |
The slower the better. A set of alpine gears in my rock crawler and I'd be happier than a puppie with two peters. _________________ CU05 w/HBB
HOODRIDANCE |
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JDub113 Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2009 Posts: 758 Location: Reno
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think slower is better too, but if I can't get going 65 on the highway... I like to keep up with traffic.
I'm having trouble choosing which transaxle I want to get. There is a small nut nearby that I was thinking about. We need a solid pro/con list of the small vs. large nut.
I was thinking large is better for the bigger brakes and highway speed.
Small is geared a bit better for obstacles offroad, but may lack highway speed and smaller brakes, but may be stronger or less likely to break since the way it is geared.
Is there other points to add or edit? |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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Here are some ratios to chew on:
4.125*1.26=5.19 final drive
4.125*1.39=5.74 final drive
4.375*1.26=5.51 final drive
4.375*1.39=6.08 final drive
Large nut RGB's have a reduction ratio of 1.26:1
Smal nut RGB's have a reduction ratio of 1.39:1
The gear sets are not interchangable between the big nut and small nut. To change from a small nut to a big nut, the complete set up from axles out is needed and vice-versa.
The large nut boxes were engineered to help stop a 1 ton load on a bus. They make great brakes on a Type 1. Small nut brakes are larger than a Type 1 and do stop better on a T1 and the stock units.
The large nut is physically heavier than the small nut and creates more unsuspended weight therefore the worst ride quality between the two. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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JDub113 Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2009 Posts: 758 Location: Reno
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Can you school me on the gear ratios? I don't know what i'm looking at. The only thing comparable that I do know about gearing has come from my Jeep and how to match say 4.11s or 4.56s with 33" tires to get the max power like on this graph: http://www.4lo.com/calc/geartable.htm
plus it turns out the guy actually has a large nut bus transaxle... I will be doing moderate offroading and basic stuff to get out to camp or hike and things like that. I want to figure out the highway speed thing though, that seems to be a bigger factor for me since I will be driving it around town as well. |
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joescoolcustoms Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 9054 Location: West By God Virginia
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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The best I can do JDub113 is to tell you to use this gear calculator:
http://www.shining-wit.net/rick/buggy/design/transmission/#Transaxle%20Ratio%20Calculator
About 2/3 the way down is a gear/speed/rpm calculator.
Plug in the following for the 1 - 4 gears, (stock ratios):
3.80 1st
2.06 2nd
1.26 3rd
0.93 4th
Then use the above final drive ratios I provided in my post above as the ring and pinion value. Pick the tire size, clich "Calculate MPH" and it will calculate the values for you and you can compare exactly what it will do out on the highway or in a trail.
I have a 4.37:1 ring and pinion turning large nut boxes so I have a final ratio of 5.51:1 and I run a 31 inch tire. This calculator shows 63 MPH at 3500 rpm for my baja. Mine will be a semi DD also running out of state for work sometimes. _________________ Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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JDub113 Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2009 Posts: 758 Location: Reno
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:31 am Post subject: |
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Thanks! That is great information... |
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JDub113 Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2009 Posts: 758 Location: Reno
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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I picked up a large nut yesterday! How do I tell what Ring and Pinion I have? This seems to be the trans code: H 9597 044, taken from the starter side of the trans.
the code above the trans code is 113 301 103
"front" of the trans is 211 301 211G
Seems like I may have a Type 1 trans? Hope the R&P are flipped... |
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williamdenson Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2006 Posts: 138 Location: Middle Tennessee
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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I was shocked to see this post re-visited.. Also happy ...
I love redux setups, and have played with them since the 70s ...
I never get to visit here except a few days, then gone again for 6 months (work issues) ..
I haven't read all the pages,, but a lot of good info I've read so far.
JDub,,, to make sure your ring is swapped,, if the trans is assembled with the axles and boxes,, put it in any gear (not reverse) ,, spin the input spline (from the engine side) to the right and make sure the stubs turn forward .....
To review,, the popular ratios available are 1.2 ,, 1.4,, and 1.68 for the small nut assemblies ... (36mm)
1.2, and 1.68 for the large nut ..... (46mm)
(Eric has a set of 1.68s available for the large nut in the ads here on the samba) (search RGB)
Again,, in review and best of memory,,, VW had a lot of problems with the 36mm size axle on the bus because the splines in the hub would strip out because of the weight of the bus, and the torque offered by the reduction boxes ....
If the axle nuts got just a little loose,, it could be trouble ....
However,, the bearings holding this setup were big common roller bearings,,, and strong .....
They(VW) created a larger spline to correct the stripped hub problem.
They did not change the reduction case, except to drill out a hole in the back for a "plug cap" .... more later on that .....
Since they didn't change the internal dimensions of the cast parts, they had to change their bearing schema to accept the large inner size of the axle stub while keeping the same outer bearing diameter as always.
That caused a problem worse than the first problem ...
They more or less used a wheel bearing idea using roller bearings that needed pre-load in order to work.
They added threads and a nut to the back of the stub axle in order to set the pre-load and used the "plug" they drilled into the reduction case as a way to access the nut for assembly and adjustment ....
(complicated)
They closed off this hole with a "freeze cap" ... (the plug I mentioned)
The end result of the large nut idea was no more stripped hubs,, but a ton of bearing problems, and mechanics who didn't know how it worked....
Another chapter of accumulating VW disasters of those times ...
(All of this is why the off-road books recommend the old 36MM style)
However,, both designs work well in buggies and baja's ...
The weight is low, so either design holds up well ....
A person using the 46MM later large nut design should read up and be advised and set the preload on the stub bearings correctly ...
As I mentioned above.. I'm so busy I don't get to be here often...
In my shop, we have a 4.86 ring going together with 1.68 stubs ....
I will be making photos along with the Johnson upright adapters ....
Thanks
B _________________ DenCo Engineering Group.. |
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hotratz Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2005 Posts: 382 Location: North Bend, Wa.
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Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Bus Trans to a Type 1 |
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allanb4570 wrote: |
hotratz wrote: |
If you understand how the no hop works they are pretty simple to build. You will however have to completely disassemble your gear boxes and press the tubes off to get the "over axle tube" onto the original axle tube and also shorten the axle tube snout on the inner gear case half to make the spring plate line up correctly. Also since your present spring plates bolt under the axle to the gearbox you will need to set it up like a type one with the axle tube going through the spring plate. (type 1 spring plate) |
Can I ask, when you shorten the axle tubes to get the spring plate to line up correctly, and fit the axle tube going through the spring plate, did you have to modify / shorten the axle also? |
Sorry I've been away so long but as mentioned already I cut off about 1" from the inner housing snout. The amount will vary depending on the thickness of the material you are using for your adaptors. Mine was 3/8ths
_________________ My Albums
My ZR2 Members Page |
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JDub113 Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2009 Posts: 758 Location: Reno
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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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So who makes the stand up brackets? Bugzyla has nothing on their website, are there other people who make these? |
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thefladge Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2005 Posts: 1290 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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My small nut reduction boxes have 1.26:1 ratio gears.
These were a rare option in 1963. Actually, they were only available as an option for the second half of the year.
I believe it was known as the "M216" option if I remember it right.
I found these gears at Vintage Parts back in the early 1990's. I have a spare set of 1.36:1 gears should I ever break the parts I am running now. _________________ 1957 Vintage Baja Bug.
2110cc engine, 40 IDF Webers on Gene Berg manifolds, Engle 110 cam, Bugpack 40×35.5 Street Pro Heads, W8CC plugs, 12.5 pound Flywheel, Kennedy 1700 pound pressure plate. |
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williamdenson Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2006 Posts: 138 Location: Middle Tennessee
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:27 am Post subject: |
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JDub,,,, Johnny Johnson was the last I knew that made the adapters, at least at a "production" level....
I have a set of these "upright" adapters that are bolted up to the housings right now..
Most of the photo's I've seen here are homemade,,, (except the no-hop set)
The one's I have are the standard upright set.. Simple and strong..
I have to leave overseas next week, but before I go,, I will unbolt this set of original JJ adapters,, take photos, and post dementions....
They will be easy to copy .....
By the way,,, 3/8" is the right amount that is cut from the housing nose piece...
B _________________ DenCo Engineering Group.. |
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hotratz Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2005 Posts: 382 Location: North Bend, Wa.
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:28 am Post subject: |
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williamdenson wrote: |
By the way,,, 3/8" is the right amount that is cut from the housing nose piece...
B |
That may be correct for the JJ no-hop kit but my adapters required a full inch removed from the snout. Don't know what the difference is but my spring plates seemed to lay in right where they were supposed to when bolted up.
_________________ My Albums
My ZR2 Members Page |
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williamdenson Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2006 Posts: 138 Location: Middle Tennessee
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe I'm using an early set of JJ adapters,,, but my set does not use the inner sleeve with the bolt clamps ... nothing ....
My set bolts up directly to the spring plates with only one extra hole drilled in the spring plate at the front for support ...
I'll get photo's up soon ....
Are the photo's above actual "Johnson" adapters ?
B _________________ DenCo Engineering Group.. |
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hotratz Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2005 Posts: 382 Location: North Bend, Wa.
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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williamdenson wrote: |
Are the photo's above actual "Johnson" adapters ?
B |
No, They are a three position indexable adapter of my own design. I'm also using thicker spring plates. The stiffener tubes are to address the 1" of support lost when I cut the snout. My response about the amount to cut off was intended to illustrate the importance of several careful measurements with the adapter you intend to use before cutting. _________________ My Albums
My ZR2 Members Page |
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