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cecil Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2005 Posts: 461 Location: Stockton, CA
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: Side air scoops |
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Any sustained research on the effects of blocking off the top of '74 side scoops and opening up the front (ram air effect)? Also the difference in cooling between stock '73 louvers and modified '74 scoops. I talked to Gary Glass, whom I feel to be pretty knowledgable, and he feels "no difference". Any other openions? |
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Pinky Samba Ass Bandit
Joined: December 31, 2003 Posts: 554
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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There has been a lot of debate over the past few years, and I think that the general concensus has been that the stock 74 muffs work best for daily driving applications (offroad and racing may be different), as the air intake takes in air at speeds, recieves sufficient air at idle, and the intake vents on the top also reduce the likelihood of drawing in exhaust.
It's kind of been beaten into the ground, but everyone feel free to pipe in with their opinions. This is just what I have gleaned from conversations on a few different forums over the years. |
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Ferretkona Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2005 Posts: 1306 Location: Columbia, CA
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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I remember a article in Hot VW's years ago when people would cut up the side of a bus to install scoops to increase the air flow. The results of the time was that no more air entered than stock. |
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Towel Rail Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005 Posts: 4622 Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Side air scoops |
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cecil wrote: |
Any sustained research on the effects of blocking off the top of '74 side scoops and opening up the front (ram air effect)? Also the difference in cooling between stock '73 louvers and modified '74 scoops. I talked to Gary Glass, whom I feel to be pretty knowledgable, and he feels "no difference". Any other openions? |
Why would you block off the top?
If your car is overheating, it's not from the vents -- it's because of timing, mixture, or driving habits. _________________ 1974 Thing -- under the knife
1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car
049 > 070 > 053 > 009 |
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bucko Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2004 Posts: 2617 Location: Coppell, Texas
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Side air scoops |
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Towel Rail wrote: |
cecil wrote: |
Any sustained research on the effects of blocking off the top of '74 side scoops and opening up the front (ram air effect)? Also the difference in cooling between stock '73 louvers and modified '74 scoops. I talked to Gary Glass, whom I feel to be pretty knowledgable, and he feels "no difference". Any other openions? |
Why would you block off the top?
If your car is overheating, it's not from the vents -- it's because of timing, mixture, or driving habits. |
If the engine overheats, it's also due to those who think they can second guess the VW engineers that had it right in the first place. Most folks remove heat shields, thermostats, and the like thinking it will make the engine run cooler. Total opposite. |
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mstatedog Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2003 Posts: 242 Location: East Coast of Mississippi
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Bucko hit the nail on the head..........THREAD OVER.....next topic... |
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kubelmann Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2003 Posts: 3266
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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I am a bit "gun shy" posting these days but..... Two of my favorite Thing folks were mentioned in this thread. gary glass and Herr Bucko both of their posts are right on. If anyone wants a "vented' engine lid I have two that are available for loan as part of a data collection project. If it was a good idea the Germans would have done it right off.
Herr Kubelman turns out 112 hp on the wheels with a 1915 and dual delortos not to mention countless mods.. and tons of vintage Porsche and various other old school mods that came from the help from my friends..
Herr Kubelmann heats up very easily and hence the 914 2.0l racing oil cooling system goes into his systems as soon as the weather gets springish..
But then he is destined to greatness.... as the result of lifelong passion |
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cecil Samba Member
Joined: February 23, 2005 Posts: 461 Location: Stockton, CA
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Gentlemen,
Thanks for the input. Actually, I don't have a cooling problem. It was going to be done mostly for looks, although I am putting a 2.3 L. 914 in over the winter and thought modified air scoops (something like F1/'74 Thing combo) would look unique. As far as function goes, it looks like a push. |
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Ferretkona Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2005 Posts: 1306 Location: Columbia, CA
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: |
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I did not find the magazine I refered to.
But the gist of it was that a well sealed motor with all the rubbers in place only moves a certain amount of air. The forced air from a scoop will not overcome the amount sucked in by the cooling fan. It might even damage rubbers. |
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Towel Rail Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005 Posts: 4622 Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Ferretkona wrote: |
It might even damage rubbers. |
And if there's anything that scares us more than that... _________________ 1974 Thing -- under the knife
1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car
049 > 070 > 053 > 009 |
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Pinky Samba Ass Bandit
Joined: December 31, 2003 Posts: 554
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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Towel Rail wrote: |
Ferretkona wrote: |
It might even damage rubbers. |
And if there's anything that scares us more than that... |
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leduke27 Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2005 Posts: 3
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: side air scoops |
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Iv'e been watching this thread for a couple of days and been waiting to see if anybody would get it right... I was told about fifteen years ago that the vents on the sides of the Thing are vents, not scoops. They are to let out the heat in the engine compartment. When the vehicle is in motion, the air passing across the vents make a syphon effect and pulls the hot air out like air pulls paint out of an airbrush/cup gun. Heat rises and that is why the vents are located near the top of engine compartment. If you make them into scoops, all you are doing is forcing more air into the engine compartment to heat up with no real way of escaping. I think the German engineers knew what they were doing and did not make them into scoops for a reason... In 1974 VW improved the design by making muffs with the vent openings on top.. It made sense to me and I did not alter my 181... Leduke |
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Towel Rail Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005 Posts: 4622 Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:22 am Post subject: Re: side air scoops |
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leduke27 wrote: |
Iv'e been watching this thread for a couple of days and been waiting to see if anybody would get it right... I was told about fifteen years ago that the vents on the sides of the Thing are vents, not scoops. They are to let out the heat in the engine compartment. When the vehicle is in motion, the air passing across the vents make a syphon effect and pulls the hot air out like air pulls paint out of an airbrush/cup gun. Heat rises and that is why the vents are located near the top of engine compartment. If you make them into scoops, all you are doing is forcing more air into the engine compartment to heat up with no real way of escaping. I think the German engineers knew what they were doing and did not make them into scoops for a reason... In 1974 VW improved the design by making muffs with the vent openings on top.. It made since to me and I did not alter my 181... Leduke |
I can see it, but it's not correct. VWs don't exhaust heat through the muffs; they draw fresh air in through them. The reason the inlets are on the top is to prevent exhaust fumes from entering the heating system, as in 1974, they switched from a gas heater to a convential engine heat system. _________________ 1974 Thing -- under the knife
1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car
049 > 070 > 053 > 009 |
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Captain Spalding Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005 Posts: 2519 Location: . . . in denial.
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Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: Re: side air scoops |
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Towel Rail wrote: |
The reason the inlets are on the top is to prevent exhaust fumes from entering the heating system, as in 1974, they switched from a gas heater to a convential engine heat system. |
Or so the story goes. I've repeated that anecdote myself many times, but I've never seen anything but forum chit-chat to substantiate it.
I can understand leduke's confusion. Aerodynamically speaking, the engine compartment vents are strangely placed.
But practically speaking, on a stock Thing with engine seals intact, there are only two ways for air to get in or out of the engine compartment: through the side vents or under the car, up and through the cylinder cooling fins. For leduke's explanation to be true, it would have to be the intent of the VW engineers that the air be drawn from under the car, up through the cylinder cooling fins and into the shroud, then past the fan into the engine compartment, and out through the vents.
"Waiting to see if anyone would get it right." Oh, the sheer hubris of it! |
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OCWest Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2007 Posts: 67 Location: Westminster , California
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: Side air scoops |
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So the scoops are designed to let the heat out? With the vent on top of the scoop, how is it engineered to drain the water that will make it's way in and does this create a rust issue? Yes I'm diggin this old tread up from the grave because I now have a 74 and that's a new concern for me lol _________________ 1974 project Thing |
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kenj06 Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2011 Posts: 198 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Side air scoops |
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OCWest wrote: |
With the vent on top of the scoop, how is it engineered to drain the water that will make it's way in and does this create a rust issue? |
There are drains with a tube running down below the floor of the engine compartment.
You can see it in this photo
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1563455.jpg
Middle left side, looks like a bar since its painted orange. |
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Drtrash Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2019 Posts: 135 Location: Phoenix
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Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Side air scoops |
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I originally bought a 74 because it looked cool, only visible difference between a 73 and 74 is the scoops, long live the scoops, window dressing or mechanical miracle it doesnt matter, cool factor wins |
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hitest Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2008 Posts: 10296 Location: Prime Meridian, ID
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Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Side air scoops |
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Understanding the boxes are inlets and not outlets requires little more than looking at all 4cyl opposed, air-cooled VWs. Every car model has an open fan on the inlet that blows air over the motor. Uprights: Back of the shroud. Pancakes: Front. When 1600DPs arrived, beetle bays required more inlet air-thus deck lid vents were added. Heated air is clearly expelled underneath the engine- not in the vents. That's a little why extra ducting is needed to get fresh air into the Type 3 fan shroud- it's sucked in low, but isolated from ever-present heat in the engine bay.
If you hold your hand over a '74 box while your car is idling on a hot day- sure you'll feel some heat escaping, but what blows out beneath will be hotter.
Look how bus vents were moved from behind the rear wheel wells to up above the beltline- then grew in '72. You got it, they're sucking in cooler air for the bigger engines. _________________
EverettB wrote: |
I wonder what the nut looks like.
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'62 L390 151, '62 L469 117, '63 L380 113, '64 L87 311, '65 L512 265, '65 L31 SO-42, '66 L360 251, '68 L30k 141, '71 L12 113, '74 ORG 181
FU#5 |
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vwwestyman Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004 Posts: 5680 Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Side air scoops |
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hitest wrote: |
Understanding the boxes are inlets and not outlets requires little more than looking at all 4cyl opposed, air-cooled VWs. Every car model has an open fan on the inlet that blows air over the motor. Uprights: Back of the shroud. Pancakes: Front. When 1600DPs arrived, beetle bays required more inlet air-thus deck lid vents were added. Heated air is clearly expelled underneath the engine- not in the vents. That's a little why extra ducting is needed to get fresh air into the Type 3 fan shroud- it's sucked in low, but isolated from ever-present heat in the engine bay.
If you hold your hand over a '74 box while your car is idling on a hot day- sure you'll feel some heat escaping, but what blows out beneath will be hotter.
Look how bus vents were moved from behind the rear wheel wells to up above the beltline- then grew in '72. You got it, they're sucking in cooler air for the bigger engines. |
If you hold your hand over the vent , you may actually feel air being drawn in.
One time I got to ride in the back of a Split window pickup (driving from a campsite area to where a hayrack ride was to start). I sat at the back, and hung my hand down over the vent. It was very clear to feel that air was being sucked in by the engine's fan. Obviously even more evident when the RPMs were higher. _________________ Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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hitest Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2008 Posts: 10296 Location: Prime Meridian, ID
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Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Side air scoops |
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Very true Dave- a piece of paper will get sucked flat against the inlets with a little rev. I'm too old and insensitive to actually feel it with my hand _________________
EverettB wrote: |
I wonder what the nut looks like.
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'62 L390 151, '62 L469 117, '63 L380 113, '64 L87 311, '65 L512 265, '65 L31 SO-42, '66 L360 251, '68 L30k 141, '71 L12 113, '74 ORG 181
FU#5 |
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