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6V/12V Flywheel/Starter Question.
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node
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:10 pm    Post subject: 6V/12V Flywheel/Starter Question. Reply with quote

VW's are much like deseases like herpes. Once you're infected you have it for life! I was infected in 72 in the form of a 59 Beetle. Some 25 or so assorted VWs of the pre 65 variety later it went into remission. Then this 60 Beetle based dune buggy followed me home. The original 36 hp is trashed, so I am swapping in a stock 74 engine. I am aware that I need to clearance the bell housing to accomodate the larger flywheel, what is the appropriate 12V starter to use with a 12 V flywheel in a 60 transaxle? How about with a 6 V flywheel? Is the bushing OD the same for both 6V & 12V starters?
Thanks,
Don
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can use an autostick starter, and not worry about the bushing, or any 67-up starter will work. You need a conversion bushing.
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Don,
OD and ID of starter bushing are differant between 6 & 12 volt types. You can buy conversion busings which have the larger 6 volt OD with much smaller 12 volt ID and visa versa.
Also you can buy a 1965 only 6 volt FW with 200mm clutch, or even a normal 40 HP 6 volt FW with 180mm clutch (if you are not going for performance) to go on your later engine. These FW require no clearancing of the tranny bellhousing. Install a 12 volt solinoid to keep from pounding the FW teeth, and this setup will really crank the engine in even the coldest weather in a 12 volt system.
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node
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info. I intend to use the existing flywheel since it has a new clutch and the ring gear looks unused, so the flywheel is undoubtedly new as well.
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Don,
Just make sure the clutch pressure plate is the type that will work with the early TO bearing!!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might consider locating a later trans for this buggy. The '60 split-case trans may not be ideal. Wink
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node
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which pressure plate is required, or how do I identify which is which. Is there a different release bearing or do I need to use a specific pressure plate. the one that I have is a diaphragm type.
As for the early transaxle, I know that it's not ideal, but for the time being it will suffice. It will be primarilly street driven and in any case driven with descretion.
Thanks,

Don
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Don,
If you have the Robert Bentley "Volkswagen Service Manual" for the 1970-79 era. You can see figure 14-9 for the late model clutch bearing and the required tranny sleeve around the input shaft to make it all work with the later PP. Image 14-11 shows the pre-1971 type of TO bearing without sleeve.
Here is an image of the pre-1971 non-diaphram spring type PP. Note the center ring on this PP suspended in the center on the arms. Both early diapram and spring type PP have this center ring to work with the earlier TO bearing setup.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

We prefer this nine spring clutch. Especially for our buses. Have had problems with the diaphram type.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While we are on the subject...

I'm a little lost here. My 66 is running a 6v starter on 12 v.
Is there any 12v starter I can just bolt on (with a bushing change?) or do I need to clearance the housing and change the flywheel when I go to a 12v starter? Can I swap a 6v solenoid for a 12v?


Thanks,
Fred
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node
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I would need a pre 70 bus PP or install a late bearing/sleave. will a late bearing/sleave fit my 60 transaxle?
Concerning the above starter question, I wonder if you couldn't sleave the 12 V shaft to 6 V diameter. Would seem like a simple lathe project. Certainly a ground surface is desireable, but for starter service a close approximation could be made. I am assuming that the difference in diameter is in the pilot portion of the shaft and not in the drive helix.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another related question concerning transaxles, what is the weak link in the early transaxle? Is agressive street driving with a stock 1600 DP apt to scatter bits?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Don,
The only way to install a TO bearing sleeve on a pre-1971 tranny would take far too much dissassembly, and require modifiing , welding, and machining of the tranny. Best to just get the earlier PP.
The problem with the split case tranny is you have two shafts running front to rear with gears on them. When one puts too much HP into the tranny the case halfs feel the strain and could split the case. Which is why VW went to a tunnel case transmission. So no matter how how much the gears push against each other there is no front to rear seam to give out.
As for at what point the tranny will split.... If you just daily drive it and not drag race it, the tranny will probably be fine with a 1600. Though it would not hurt to retorque all the tranny fasteners (that you can get to with tranny in) that hold the halves together.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fred g wrote:
Can I swap a 6v solenoid for a 12v?


Hi Fred,
Yes, you can, as we posted earlier. That is what we do for our early VWs that are running 12 volt with 6 volt FW that has 200mm clutch area.
Otherwise you have to change the FW, and rear starter bushing to match the 12 volt starter gear.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:

Also you can buy a 1965 only 6 volt FW with 200mm clutch, or even a normal 40 HP 6 volt FW with 180mm clutch (if you are not going for performance) to go on your later engine. These FW require no clearancing of the tranny bellhousing. Install a 12 volt solinoid to keep from pounding the FW teeth, and this setup will really crank the engine in even the coldest weather in a 12 volt system.


I am looking at buying a 1600 to replace my 40 hp. I recently bought a new 6V starter so I do not really want to buy a 12v one once I switch (I am already converted to 12v sans the flywheel/starter).

Is this the type of flywheel you are speaking of?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=808126
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but personally would not use a lightened flywheel unless was making a drag race only engine.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Yes, but personally would not use a lightened flywheel unless was making a drag race only engine.


Thanks for the tip. Are these types of flywheels kind of rare because I have been searching the samba classifieds and this is the only one I can find.
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would say they are unusual, not rare.
Try your local engine rebuilder first. If that does not pan out, post a "Wanted" ad in the "Classifieds" here, or contact places like Rimco that probably have a dozen on the shelf.
If all fails, you can have Rimco take a brand new spanking 12 volt FW, they can cut off the 12 volt teeth, and press on a 6 volt ring gear.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to be clear, with this type of flywheel I can bolt it up to a later model engine (1600, 1776, etc) and still not have to clearance my 6v tranny bellhousing? Sounds good to me

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1140084
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:51 am    Post subject: 6V vs 12V flywheel Reply with quote

Smile Did not understand the whole needs of the OP.

Any bug from 65 and older had the bell housing for a 6V 180mm flywheel.

Any bug from 66 and newer had the clearance for a 200mm flywheel.

In 1966 they had a 200mm 6V flywheel (one yr only US mkt).

I installed the 66 flywheel on many of my 40hp 83mm BB rebuilt engines.

I have never seen a lightened 6V 180mm flywheel.

A 200mm flywheel be it a 6V or 12V can be lightened to the 12lbs.

In either case a 200mm will require grinding off the three points in a 65 or early trans as many have found out over the yrs.

Steve
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am glad I asked! Thank you! In regards to clearancing the housing what tool will i need to buy to ground out the transmission and where do I buy such a tool?

Also on a unrelated topic, today my accelerator cable snapped at the throttle arm, so tomorrow I will have to install a new cable. Please tell me this can be done with the engine in and with out raising the car?
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