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Tram 
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 Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Banjoben wrote: | Got one stumpin' me. My 70 was running nice. then it started missing intermittently. over a few says it got worse, so I started poking around checking things. Now will start with some difficulty, and runs horrible rich, misfiring badly, only runnung on a couple of cylinders and has a heck of a time bringing up the rpms. once they come up it clears and runs decent, but it will not idle.. Here's the funny part. I was backprobing the 4 wire connector going to the baro sensor. to check for loose connections or broken wires. When I got to the signal wire I happened to have my finger on the lead of the probe. That was enough of a ground to vastly improve how the car ran. As soon as I let off it went back to bad. It will idle if I'm touching that lead, but it's still not running good.
So far I have checked:
Fuel pressure 29 psi steady.
Voltage 14.3 running (Taken at the FI computer)
ALL grounds. with an ohmmeter and physical check.
Ohmed out most of the FI harness. all seems good.
most all of the connectors.
Contacts in the distributor. they are iffy, but test good through a meter
I'm wondering what to look into next. Baro sensor, intake pressure sensor? ECU? could it be those contacts?
The CHT sensor is new.
I gotta win this one soon to keep from installing a controlled fuel leak. |
I'll bet that if you test your MAP (baro) sensor to see if it holds vacuum, it won't.
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MarcusAK
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Joined: August 20, 2010
Posts: 98
Location: I can see Russia from my house!
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I have a 76 Fuel Injected bus and I can not get it started. This is also my first FI VW I have ever owned. I have gotten a pretty basic idea of how the system works, but I still need some help as I forge into my first diagnostic.
To start with, I know there is spark all the way to the plugs, so the ignition system is fine. When the key is turned the 'double relay' clicks also, but that's a much noise as I can hear (other than the engine truning over.)
So, to start with... for the life of me I cannot remove the black cover on the air flow meter. I see no screws, no tabs, no visable way to remove it. It sure won't budge given some pressure in any direction and I am trying to avoid breaking it. Is there some trick I don't know? I have searched online and through these forums, but I just can't read 176 pages through.
Thanks for any help!
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One thing they don't tell you in any of the manuals is about the blood sacrifice required to keep them alive.
Engines run on fuel. Motors run on electricity or springs. But I know what you mean.
Type 1's- 1960 Bug, 65 Bugbus
Type 2's- 1954 single cab, 72 Westy, 72 European import Arcomobile aka "The Swiss Miss," 76 Custom camper aka "Big Blue"
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Banjoben
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Joined: October 02, 2011
Posts: 114
Location: Finger lakes Region N.Y.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: | | Banjoben wrote: | Got one stumpin' me. My 70 was running nice. then it started missing intermittently. over a few says it got worse, so I started poking around checking things. Now will start with some difficulty, and runs horrible rich, misfiring badly, only runnung on a couple of cylinders and has a heck of a time bringing up the rpms. once they come up it clears and runs decent, but it will not idle.. Here's the funny part. I was backprobing the 4 wire connector going to the baro sensor. to check for loose connections or broken wires. When I got to the signal wire I happened to have my finger on the lead of the probe. That was enough of a ground to vastly improve how the car ran. As soon as I let off it went back to bad. It will idle if I'm touching that lead, but it's still not running good.
So far I have checked:
Fuel pressure 29 psi steady.
Voltage 14.3 running (Taken at the FI computer)
ALL grounds. with an ohmmeter and physical check.
Ohmed out most of the FI harness. all seems good.
most all of the connectors.
Contacts in the distributor. they are iffy, but test good through a meter
I'm wondering what to look into next. Baro sensor, intake pressure sensor? ECU? could it be those contacts?
The CHT sensor is new.
I gotta win this one soon to keep from installing a controlled fuel leak. |
I'll bet that if you test your MAP (baro) sensor to see if it holds vacuum, it won't. |
Just tested. Holds fine. (Darn! I was hoping you were right) all vacuum lines are new as well.
I did recently have the injectors out to replace the fuel lines, but it ran good for a long while after that.
_________________
1970 VW Type 3 fastback. (Abby Normal )
1954 Triumph TR2
1991 BMW 318is
ASE Certified Advanced Level Master Tec / Toyota Master Diagnostic Tec.
Head Boffin of the legendary(does it really exist?) Stray Cat Vintage and Custom Garage. Home of "The Bomber Squadron" |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 16835
Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Banjoben wrote: | | Tram wrote: | | Banjoben wrote: | Got one stumpin' me. My 70 was running nice. then it started missing intermittently. over a few says it got worse, so I started poking around checking things. Now will start with some difficulty, and runs horrible rich, misfiring badly, only runnung on a couple of cylinders and has a heck of a time bringing up the rpms. once they come up it clears and runs decent, but it will not idle.. Here's the funny part. I was backprobing the 4 wire connector going to the baro sensor. to check for loose connections or broken wires. When I got to the signal wire I happened to have my finger on the lead of the probe. That was enough of a ground to vastly improve how the car ran. As soon as I let off it went back to bad. It will idle if I'm touching that lead, but it's still not running good.
So far I have checked:
Fuel pressure 29 psi steady.
Voltage 14.3 running (Taken at the FI computer)
ALL grounds. with an ohmmeter and physical check.
Ohmed out most of the FI harness. all seems good.
most all of the connectors.
Contacts in the distributor. they are iffy, but test good through a meter
I'm wondering what to look into next. Baro sensor, intake pressure sensor? ECU? could it be those contacts?
The CHT sensor is new.
I gotta win this one soon to keep from installing a controlled fuel leak. |
I'll bet that if you test your MAP (baro) sensor to see if it holds vacuum, it won't. |
Just tested. Holds fine. (Darn! I was hoping you were right) all vacuum lines are new as well.
I did recently have the injectors out to replace the fuel lines, but it ran good for a long while after that. |
CHT is new? Check it anyways.
_________________
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May 4, 1970... Never Forget.
RIPRW
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Banjoben
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2011
Posts: 114
Location: Finger lakes Region N.Y.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: | | Banjoben wrote: | | Tram wrote: | | Banjoben wrote: | Got one stumpin' me. My 70 was running nice. then it started missing intermittently. over a few says it got worse, so I started poking around checking things. Now will start with some difficulty, and runs horrible rich, misfiring badly, only runnung on a couple of cylinders and has a heck of a time bringing up the rpms. once they come up it clears and runs decent, but it will not idle.. Here's the funny part. I was backprobing the 4 wire connector going to the baro sensor. to check for loose connections or broken wires. When I got to the signal wire I happened to have my finger on the lead of the probe. That was enough of a ground to vastly improve how the car ran. As soon as I let off it went back to bad. It will idle if I'm touching that lead, but it's still not running good.
So far I have checked:
Fuel pressure 29 psi steady.
Voltage 14.3 running (Taken at the FI computer)
ALL grounds. with an ohmmeter and physical check.
Ohmed out most of the FI harness. all seems good.
most all of the connectors.
Contacts in the distributor. they are iffy, but test good through a meter
I'm wondering what to look into next. Baro sensor, intake pressure sensor? ECU? could it be those contacts?
The CHT sensor is new.
I gotta win this one soon to keep from installing a controlled fuel leak. |
I'll bet that if you test your MAP (baro) sensor to see if it holds vacuum, it won't. |
Just tested. Holds fine. (Darn! I was hoping you were right) all vacuum lines are new as well.
I did recently have the injectors out to replace the fuel lines, but it ran good for a long while after that. |
CHT is new? Check it anyways. |
Checked it. It comes in around 650 K ohm Which is nowhere near the spec, but is what is measured new, and worked fine up till now.
Also, bypassing that sensor and using a 100 ohm resistor instead does not change the way it's running.
moving the FI harness near the baro sensor, or moving the sensor itsself sometimes changes how the engine runs. I inspected all connections in the area, then I pulled the harness out, slit it open inspected it real closely, and started ohming individual wires while doing the wiggle test. So far, all the wires look excellent and no results. Still runs like puke.
I'm leaning towards a bum baro sensor.
I'm done messing with it today. I gotta have a beer before I reach for the torches.
Biggest thing ticking me off is that there's 3 car shows I could attend this weekend if it weren't for the broken Atari system that is supposed to run this motor.
_________________
1970 VW Type 3 fastback. (Abby Normal )
1954 Triumph TR2
1991 BMW 318is
ASE Certified Advanced Level Master Tec / Toyota Master Diagnostic Tec.
Head Boffin of the legendary(does it really exist?) Stray Cat Vintage and Custom Garage. Home of "The Bomber Squadron" |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 16835
Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Banjoben wrote: | | Tram wrote: | | Banjoben wrote: | | Tram wrote: | | Banjoben wrote: | Got one stumpin' me. My 70 was running nice. then it started missing intermittently. over a few says it got worse, so I started poking around checking things. Now will start with some difficulty, and runs horrible rich, misfiring badly, only runnung on a couple of cylinders and has a heck of a time bringing up the rpms. once they come up it clears and runs decent, but it will not idle.. Here's the funny part. I was backprobing the 4 wire connector going to the baro sensor. to check for loose connections or broken wires. When I got to the signal wire I happened to have my finger on the lead of the probe. That was enough of a ground to vastly improve how the car ran. As soon as I let off it went back to bad. It will idle if I'm touching that lead, but it's still not running good.
So far I have checked:
Fuel pressure 29 psi steady.
Voltage 14.3 running (Taken at the FI computer)
ALL grounds. with an ohmmeter and physical check.
Ohmed out most of the FI harness. all seems good.
most all of the connectors.
Contacts in the distributor. they are iffy, but test good through a meter
I'm wondering what to look into next. Baro sensor, intake pressure sensor? ECU? could it be those contacts?
The CHT sensor is new.
I gotta win this one soon to keep from installing a controlled fuel leak. |
I'll bet that if you test your MAP (baro) sensor to see if it holds vacuum, it won't. |
Just tested. Holds fine. (Darn! I was hoping you were right) all vacuum lines are new as well.
I did recently have the injectors out to replace the fuel lines, but it ran good for a long while after that. |
CHT is new? Check it anyways. |
Checked it. It comes in around 650 K ohm Which is nowhere near the spec, but is what is measured new, and worked fine up till now.
Also, bypassing that sensor and using a 100 ohm resistor instead does not change the way it's running.
moving the FI harness near the baro sensor, or moving the sensor itsself sometimes changes how the engine runs. I inspected all connections in the area, then I pulled the harness out, slit it open inspected it real closely, and started ohming individual wires while doing the wiggle test. So far, all the wires look excellent and no results. Still runs like puke.
I'm leaning towards a bum baro sensor.
I'm done messing with it today. I gotta have a beer before I reach for the torches.
Biggest thing ticking me off is that there's 3 car shows I could attend this weekend if it weren't for the broken Atari system that is supposed to run this motor. |
Could be bad windings. did you test the terminals on the baro with a VOM?
_________________
Give A Pal a Hand!
www.happytrailsfarm.org
May 4, 1970... Never Forget.
RIPRW
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 16835
Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| MarcusAK wrote: | I have a 76 Fuel Injected bus and I can not get it started. This is also my first FI VW I have ever owned. I have gotten a pretty basic idea of how the system works, but I still need some help as I forge into my first diagnostic.
To start with, I know there is spark all the way to the plugs, so the ignition system is fine. When the key is turned the 'double relay' clicks also, but that's a much noise as I can hear (other than the engine truning over.)
So, to start with... for the life of me I cannot remove the black cover on the air flow meter. I see no screws, no tabs, no visable way to remove it. It sure won't budge given some pressure in any direction and I am trying to avoid breaking it. Is there some trick I don't know? I have searched online and through these forums, but I just can't read 176 pages through.
Thanks for any help! |
Your Bus is a different type of injection entirely. PM me with a detailed synopsis of what is/ isn't happening, such as state of the ignition system, if the fuel pump is running. what your fuel pressure reading is, etc.
_________________
Give A Pal a Hand!
www.happytrailsfarm.org
May 4, 1970... Never Forget.
RIPRW
"Hell is- other people."- Jean- Paul Sartre |
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Banjoben
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2011
Posts: 114
Location: Finger lakes Region N.Y.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: | | Banjoben wrote: | | Tram wrote: | | Banjoben wrote: | | Tram wrote: | | Banjoben wrote: | Got one stumpin' me. My 70 was running nice. then it started missing intermittently. over a few says it got worse, so I started poking around checking things. Now will start with some difficulty, and runs horrible rich, misfiring badly, only runnung on a couple of cylinders and has a heck of a time bringing up the rpms. once they come up it clears and runs decent, but it will not idle.. Here's the funny part. I was backprobing the 4 wire connector going to the baro sensor. to check for loose connections or broken wires. When I got to the signal wire I happened to have my finger on the lead of the probe. That was enough of a ground to vastly improve how the car ran. As soon as I let off it went back to bad. It will idle if I'm touching that lead, but it's still not running good.
So far I have checked:
Fuel pressure 29 psi steady.
Voltage 14.3 running (Taken at the FI computer)
ALL grounds. with an ohmmeter and physical check.
Ohmed out most of the FI harness. all seems good.
most all of the connectors.
Contacts in the distributor. they are iffy, but test good through a meter
I'm wondering what to look into next. Baro sensor, intake pressure sensor? ECU? could it be those contacts?
The CHT sensor is new.
I gotta win this one soon to keep from installing a controlled fuel leak. |
I'll bet that if you test your MAP (baro) sensor to see if it holds vacuum, it won't. |
Just tested. Holds fine. (Darn! I was hoping you were right) all vacuum lines are new as well.
I did recently have the injectors out to replace the fuel lines, but it ran good for a long while after that. |
CHT is new? Check it anyways. |
Checked it. It comes in around 650 K ohm Which is nowhere near the spec, but is what is measured new, and worked fine up till now.
Also, bypassing that sensor and using a 100 ohm resistor instead does not change the way it's running.
moving the FI harness near the baro sensor, or moving the sensor itsself sometimes changes how the engine runs. I inspected all connections in the area, then I pulled the harness out, slit it open inspected it real closely, and started ohming individual wires while doing the wiggle test. So far, all the wires look excellent and no results. Still runs like puke.
I'm leaning towards a bum baro sensor.
I'm done messing with it today. I gotta have a beer before I reach for the torches.
Biggest thing ticking me off is that there's 3 car shows I could attend this weekend if it weren't for the broken Atari system that is supposed to run this motor. |
Could be bad windings. did you test the terminals on the baro with a VOM? |
Yes. 2 of the terminals came in around 92 ohms, the other 2 were higher. I think in the 300 ohm range. I'll check tomorrow. I did notice that they did not change when I applied vacuum.
_________________
1970 VW Type 3 fastback. (Abby Normal )
1954 Triumph TR2
1991 BMW 318is
ASE Certified Advanced Level Master Tec / Toyota Master Diagnostic Tec.
Head Boffin of the legendary(does it really exist?) Stray Cat Vintage and Custom Garage. Home of "The Bomber Squadron" |
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marchi
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Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 477
Location: Abilene, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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All mighty gods of the F.I. shower me with your wisdom!
Ok, so I have spark, fuel pressure(bad pump relay but i jump it) rotation but no fire and run. i checked wire numbers with brown bently and multiple wire diagrams off of here. So close to running without carbs.
wire19
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'70 Squareback (acquired, getting some love)
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 16835
Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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You've got wire 19 hooked up to the wire that goes to the oil send unit. It should go to a wire that comes from terminal 85 on the pump relay. Look at that wire on the relay. Is it red? If so, disconnect it and check continuity on the red wire next to the blue green one you're hooked to through to the end of the wire that you just took off Terminal 85 at the pump relay. The pump relay is the one up under the dash.
If you have continuity on that wire front to rear, plug the front back on Terminal 85 and hook the rear to Wire 19. Put the blue green on the oil sender where it belongs.
See F1 here? that's the oil sender.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/type3_6870.jpg
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marchi
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Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 477
Location: Abilene, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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ok swapped that wire, im a dumbing i have the schematic hanging on the wall and was looking at it earlier. I still have no fuel pump by key pretty sure the relay is bad, no clicking at all but the back seat clicks on key turn. but when i jump the pump relay so it runs continuos i still get crank but no run. how do i check injectors for pulse?
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'69 Fastback (Flamer)
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'02 GTi (Alien'ites) |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 16835
Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| marchi wrote: | | ok swapped that wire, im a dumbing i have the schematic hanging on the wall and was looking at it earlier. I still have no fuel pump by key pretty sure the relay is bad, no clicking at all but the back seat clicks on key turn. but when i jump the pump relay so it runs continuos i still get crank but no run. how do i check injectors for pulse? |
Put your foot on the accel and try it. Could be the throttle sensor is out of whack.
As to the pump- no- run issue, look here for how to trace the wires from the main power relay to the FP relay:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6077360#6077360
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Give A Pal a Hand!
www.happytrailsfarm.org
May 4, 1970... Never Forget.
RIPRW
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Banjoben
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2011
Posts: 114
Location: Finger lakes Region N.Y.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: | | marchi wrote: | | ok swapped that wire, im a dumbing i have the schematic hanging on the wall and was looking at it earlier. I still have no fuel pump by key pretty sure the relay is bad, no clicking at all but the back seat clicks on key turn. but when i jump the pump relay so it runs continuos i still get crank but no run. how do i check injectors for pulse? |
Put your foot on the accel and try it. Could be the throttle sensor is out of whack.
As to the pump- no- run issue, look here for how to trace the wires from the main power relay to the FP relay:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6077360#6077360 |
If you test out the relay and it all comes back good, and you don't have any signal to the relay from the ECU, I was able to repair mine.
I opened up the ECU, on the board near the main harness connector there is a transistor that is for the pump. It looks like a small silver can wearing a crown. It's the only transistor on the board with a heat sinc (Ring of metal with tabs off the top for cooling) under the can, where the pins go into the board there is a disc of foam rubber (Also the only transistor on the board with that feature). On mine, the rubber had held moisture and corroded the pins off the transistor. When I touched the component it about fell of in my hand.
I was able to clean it up and repair the pins with solder. My fuel pump had worked perfectly ever since.
_________________
1970 VW Type 3 fastback. (Abby Normal )
1954 Triumph TR2
1991 BMW 318is
ASE Certified Advanced Level Master Tec / Toyota Master Diagnostic Tec.
Head Boffin of the legendary(does it really exist?) Stray Cat Vintage and Custom Garage. Home of "The Bomber Squadron" |
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marchi
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Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 477
Location: Abilene, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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ok the big problem i found tonight besides fuel pump relay is no fuel squirting, have good pressure but injectors arent putting out. how do i check wires to make sure they are getting signal? i dbl and triple checked on wire locations with the bently, clems, and haynes they look good except for lack of atmosphere temp sensor to plug wire into so i grounded it out for now.
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Trailer Queens have feelings too!
'69 Fastback (Flamer)
'70 Squareback (acquired, getting some love)
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 16835
Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| marchi wrote: | | ok the big problem i found tonight besides fuel pump relay is no fuel squirting, have good pressure but injectors arent putting out. how do i check wires to make sure they are getting signal? i dbl and triple checked on wire locations with the bently, clems, and haynes they look good except for lack of atmosphere temp sensor to plug wire into so i grounded it out for now. |
Don't ground it! Just leave it unplugged.
You'll need to check the trigger points and the wires under the boot that plug into it.
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marchi
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:40 am Post subject: |
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not trying to be a pain but i am meter stupid, all i can check is volts and thats a challenge 
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Tram
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| marchi wrote: | | not trying to be a pain but i am meter stupid, all i can check is volts and thats a challenge |
Just pull the boot up and look at the wires under to see if any are broken for now.
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marchi
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Location: Abilene, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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wires all look great! i have another harness with more plugs on it then i have, believe its for a 73, so i have partrs but prefer not to splice in wires.
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Mike Fisher
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Mason
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| I've got a 68 square "A" fi system. From what I understand the "B" mps sensors don't have a full Load adjustment because there is the full load sensor under the right runner. I have adjusted the screw under the epoxy plug and gotten the idle to around 13.7 AFR using my wideband. Is there a way to adjust the mixture under full load? It's going really rich while cruising at a steady speed down to the low 10's AFR. Also after adjusting today it wants to die under braking I'm thinking fouled plugs due to the extremely rich situation. |
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