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rosevillain Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2005 Posts: 1286 Location: roseville, ca
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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sjbartnik wrote: |
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Sorry, man. I meant that the miss moved with the wire. In the mean time, I noticed that the exhaust is blowing black smoke all of the time when running, even if I unplug the offending injector. I'm going to ignore this until I find whatever it is that's causing the miss.
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If your exhaust is blowing black smoke when running, that means you are running severely rich. I don't think you can afford to ignore this as running severely rich could in itself be the cause of your miss because of either the poor mixture itself or spark plug fouling due to the poor mixture.
What do the plugs look like? If they're all equally black with carbon then you have some sort of systemic mixture issue causing the rich running which needs to be addressed. |
Thanks for looking.
Plugs look good.
The only way that I found the miss was to remove the injectors from the intake and watch the pulses. I may have two separate issues, but I'm pretty sure that after replacing the ECU, there is a wiring issue causing the miss. It has been shown that poor injector spray can cause a rich looking condition from the tailpipe. KTPhil had low fuel pressure that caused black smoke way back. |
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rosevillain Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2005 Posts: 1286 Location: roseville, ca
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Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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KTPhil wrote: |
rosevillain wrote: |
Maybe after I put the transaxle and engine back in due to the hockey stick deciding to not play nice.
Not fuel injection related, but any ideas why I have had to move my transaxle once a year to re-set the hockey stick? The shift rod bushing was toast. Maybe that? |
But I suppose if the bushing so worn you aren't getting full motion, the lack of positive engagement might wear something out. Also check your coupler under the car to see if that's adding to the play or misalignment. |
I was kind of thinking that too. Also found that the front trans mount was upside down. That made it hard to install and adjust the coupling when the bushing was good. I wonder if that could also be the cause of the left turn vibration? |
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ziconylo Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2006 Posts: 88
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Hi guys,
I am writing to share some conclusion of my latest FI setting.
For 6 years car was riding ok, but when warm up it "waving" on idle. Setting where not stable -poor connections etc.
This year I said to myself I will make it work
- made all perfect - valves, timing, pressure, voltage, possible air leak
but still has problem.
- I did more - used silicone grease for IAD shaft and bought CIS seals for injectors.
Helped more, but was not all.
With discussion with Ray I was told that CHT is accommodating the temperature and make mixture too lean.
I have examined that more and installed wide-band real time afr.
My conclusions are that:
- my particular 68' 1600 works perfect on 13 AFR on idle. To reach that on warm you can - a. adjust MPS, b. add resistance ballast on CHT or change spec pressure (0.1 PSI --> 2.8% in mixture change)
Finally I have added 100ohm ballast to CHT (when not adding the AFR goes around 14 and CHT accommodates heat what cause the mixture to lean and engine is waving - so no air leak but mixture is not adjusted to condition); adjusted MPS and car works perfect on warm.
But I had problem with cold start - engine starting hard, knocking, symptoms like ignition problem for 2-3 minutes -just improper mixture for cold start. Then I have swapped CHT (for original on car) and now I had good cold start and on warm works good (not as good as with other CHT but totally acceptable)
My conclusion is: you can have no air leak, all specs - pressure, timing, no injectors leak, trigger points resistance perfect but engine waving on warm idle. If you don't know where to go I advise follow CHT investigation. CHT sets 80% of mixture. SMALL CHANGES OF RESISTANCE CAN HEAVILY INFLUENCE ON MIXTURE SETUP--> 50 ohms on CHT inluence AFR 0,7points as I have measured.
I have some small work to do
- check desired resistance on cold start for my CHT and experiment with CHT and resistance balast (50-100 ohm is enough). Propably some MPS adjust to be required. But if no better behavior Iam totally happy with current setting
- will rebuild two pole D-jetronic for L-jetronic (some may protest but my experience is that female connectors D-jetronic loosen).
Some other remarks -
- Silicone grease, inHG pump to check membrane sensor, afr are very usefull
- I have set distributor driver shaft to 60 degres according to spec (I have other setting) but It didnt change much. Now its according to spec and I am happy.
I am not a mechanic so these are my personal opinions. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Hard to argue with your data, and thanks for sharing.
But some of that is counter to others' experience. For example. a 2.8% change in mixture for only a 0.1 psi fuel pressure change is pretty high, and I suspect other factors were at work. Otherwise, the standard range of 28-30 psi would yield a mixture change of more than 50%!
Also, most would agree this system is about 80% MPS-controlled, not CHT-controlled. The influence of the temp sensors plateaus once you get to normal operating temps. Brad Anders' site explains this in detail.
http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/ecu.htm#CTC
his site is a gold mine for anyone wanting to learn about D-Jet and how to tweak it. |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:47 am Post subject: |
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KTPhil wrote: |
Hard to argue with your data, and thanks for sharing.
But some of that is counter to others' experience. For example. a 2.8% change in mixture for only a 0.1 psi fuel pressure change is pretty high, and I suspect other factors were at work. Otherwise, the standard range of 28-30 psi would yield a mixture change of more than 50%!
Also, most would agree this system is about 80% MPS-controlled, not CHT-controlled. The influence of the temp sensors plateaus once you get to normal operating temps. Brad Anders' site explains this in detail.
http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/ecu.htm#CTC
his site is a gold mine for anyone wanting to learn about D-Jet and how to tweak it. |
You have to keep in mind that the 68-69 version of the system, has a seperate MPS and full load switch. Those got combined for the 70 system, which is more like what the 914 uses. This means some of the info directly interchanges, and some doesn't.
If you talked to Ray, he'd tell you that what you really need is a reostat in place of the CHT, that would allow you to fine tune the engine when cold, and to adjust it for fully warmed up.
Another way to richen the system up, is to unplug the TS-1 (or TS2 depending on where the info comes from) sensor (in the case or IAD for later cars), as that gives 10% enrichment across the entire temp range. Ray did this for summer use in Texas, as it can get very warm there in the summer months.
You might want to leave the 100 ohm resistor in place, and just live with the cold start up condition, as you spend more time with the engine up to temperature, than you do with it cold. From cold to fully warmed up should be 5 to 8 minutes total. If you drive the car in the winter months, you might find that you don't need the balast resistor at all. There are multiple of ways to "trick" the system, and I've only pointed out a couple.
Keep up your research though, as you might find the "sweet spot" for your car. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:06 am Post subject: |
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One of the most critical things for proper warmup is to have a correctly functioning correct for fuel injection engine air thermostat in place. Bosch injection is designed to work best at 87 degrees C, so getting there as quickly as possible and then maintaining it is key. On aircooleds, there will be rapid temp spikes but this is to be expected. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Bob.....you are on track. I did not realize this discussion was going on here as well or I would just keep it here.
Here was my response this morning in PM.
Quote: |
Yes 13 afr is not bad but at idle it is, fairly rich.
Also bear in mind.....what exhaust system or muffler are you using? What wideband sensor are you reading afr with (It must be a wideband sensor)? Where in the exhaust are you placing the sensor?
With the stock muffler.....the readings from a sensor probe placed in the tailpipe will not be particularly accurate. It can easily be a factor of 1.0 afr....incorrect.
Yes....the cht sensor is a multiplier. What your engine can tolerate will be based upon what your ambient temps are like and what the final combined resistance number drops to when its fully warmed up.
As I noted.....if you can keep the cht resistance total with combined resistor from dropping below about 125 ohms when fully warmed up then that will be good. You adjust the mps from there.
Here is what an adjusting scenario looks like:
There may be a point where the added resistor to the cht makes a good difference......but only so much........and then making a slight adjustment to mps....which can make more improvement but may not make all of the improvement you need....but further adjustment to the mps......then makes it worse.....
..at this point you make a slight adjustment to fuel pressure.
You work in that order. You do not want (as you are finding).....to have to add large volumes of resistance to the cht. You add just enough to keep the cht from dropping you too lean at fully warmed up. Adding a little too much.....causes too rich of a warmup when cold.
How much your system can stand will also depend upon what your ambient temperature is. In places like the central southwest of the usa.....it is so hot...my system requires 125-150 ohms.......and.......typically morning temperatures are about 80-85F at 6:00 am.....so the resistance of the cht does not rise as much when the engine is cool.
If you are in Europe.....and have cool evenings and mornings and moderately warm day times.....this will be hard to balance. You might need 100 ohms resistor when warmed up....but require only 25-50 ohms resistor when its cooled.
One thing that may also help is to disconnect or ballast the other sensor that is plugged into the engine case. This sensor gives between 5-10% extra range to fuel mixture.
With the combination of first adding resistance to cht, then adjusting mps, then slight adjustment to fuel......the last adjustment might be either simply unplugging the other sensor or adding a small or large resistor to it.
In the warmer areas of the usa.....typically I run with a 125 ohm resistor added to cht....mps adjusted to that configuration. .....and in summer.....the temp sensor #1 unplugged. It gets plugged back in during fall, winter and spring. Also let me check my book as to whether I unplug it for warm weather or cold.....but that is the method. Ray |
One problem with the early system is the lack of fine adjustment with the MPS. Contrary to popular portrayal....the late MPS is not JUST a combining of the pressure switch and MPS function.
Yes...it does that combined function but it provides more as well. Typically the separate full load switch on early type 3....is just that.....a full load switch.
In the later MPS, the copper diaphragm is NOT just sensitive to and providing enrichment for...full load vacuum signal. It also provides added enrichment rate at moderate to small throttle movements when pulling away.
Add to this....the later TPS had a more incremental addition of enrichment....not just an off and on function like the two wire early TPS.
So...the early systems were set up to have more "weight" or importance to the baseline fuel mixture setting which is created by resistance programming of the the system based around input from fuel pressure, CHT (temp 2) andd case/intake/ambient (temp 1).
The change point to the system for load are rpm, MPS, full load sensor and TPS....of whih the TPS is pretty much just an on/off switch.
So.....its important that the main fuel mixture baseline is as spot on as possible because the inputs that give change while driving are not very adjustable.
The MPS only has so much load reaction range to vacuum if you have to make the adjusting screw tension too tight or loose.
So....you accomplish this first with the two temp sensors as much as you can.
Whether you do final adjustment with MPS first or fuel pressure tweaks first...will depend on what results you get.
There are other little tuning tweaks but ...they are less normal and I will get into them later if needed. Ray |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:13 am Post subject: |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
Bob.....you are on track. I did not realize this discussion was going on here as well or I would just keep it here.
Here was my response this morning in PM.
Quote: |
Yes 13 afr is not bad but at idle it is, fairly rich.
Also bear in mind.....what exhaust system or muffler are you using? What wideband sensor are you reading afr with (It must be a wideband sensor)? Where in the exhaust are you placing the sensor?
With the stock muffler.....the readings from a sensor probe placed in the tailpipe will not be particularly accurate. It can easily be a factor of 1.0 afr....incorrect.
Yes....the cht sensor is a multiplier. What your engine can tolerate will be based upon what your ambient temps are like and what the final combined resistance number drops to when its fully warmed up.
As I noted.....if you can keep the cht resistance total with combined resistor from dropping below about 125 ohms when fully warmed up then that will be good. You adjust the mps from there.
Here is what an adjusting scenario looks like:
There may be a point where the added resistor to the cht makes a good difference......but only so much........and then making a slight adjustment to mps....which can make more improvement but may not make all of the improvement you need....but further adjustment to the mps......then makes it worse.....
..at this point you make a slight adjustment to fuel pressure.
You work in that order. You do not want (as you are finding).....to have to add large volumes of resistance to the cht. You add just enough to keep the cht from dropping you too lean at fully warmed up. Adding a little too much.....causes too rich of a warmup when cold.
How much your system can stand will also depend upon what your ambient temperature is. In places like the central southwest of the usa.....it is so hot...my system requires 125-150 ohms.......and.......typically morning temperatures are about 80-85F at 6:00 am.....so the resistance of the cht does not rise as much when the engine is cool.
If you are in Europe.....and have cool evenings and mornings and moderately warm day times.....this will be hard to balance. You might need 100 ohms resistor when warmed up....but require only 25-50 ohms resistor when its cooled.
One thing that may also help is to disconnect or ballast the other sensor that is plugged into the engine case. This sensor gives between 5-10% extra range to fuel mixture.
With the combination of first adding resistance to cht, then adjusting mps, then slight adjustment to fuel......the last adjustment might be either simply unplugging the other sensor or adding a small or large resistor to it.
In the warmer areas of the usa.....typically I run with a 125 ohm resistor added to cht....mps adjusted to that configuration. .....and in summer.....the temp sensor #1 unplugged. It gets plugged back in during fall, winter and spring. Also let me check my book as to whether I unplug it for warm weather or cold.....but that is the method. Ray |
One problem with the early system is the lack of fine adjustment with the MPS. Contrary to popular portrayal....the late MPS is not JUST a combining of the pressure switch and MPS function.
Yes...it does that combined function but it provides more as well. Typically the separate full load switch on early type 3....is just that.....a full load switch.
In the later MPS, the copper diaphragm is NOT just sensitive to and providing enrichment for...full load vacuum signal. It also provides added enrichment rate at moderate to small throttle movements when pulling away.
Add to this....the later TPS had a more incremental addition of enrichment....not just an off and on function like the two wire early TPS.
So...the early systems were set up to have more "weight" or importance to the baseline fuel mixture setting which is created by resistance programming of the the system based around input from fuel pressure, CHT (temp 2) andd case/intake/ambient (temp 1).
The change point to the system for load are rpm, MPS, full load sensor and TPS....of whih the TPS is pretty much just an on/off switch.
So.....its important that the main fuel mixture baseline is as spot on as possible because the inputs that give change while driving are not very adjustable.
The MPS only has so much load reaction range to vacuum if you have to make the adjusting screw tension too tight or loose.
So....you accomplish this first with the two temp sensors as much as you can.
Whether you do final adjustment with MPS first or fuel pressure tweaks first...will depend on what results you get.
There are other little tuning tweaks but ...they are less normal and I will get into them later if needed. Ray |
And this IS why fuel pressure has to be rock solid and not wavering at all (1 to 2 psi can have an effect).
Also, I had no idea of what he had discussed with you. I was just going off some old info that you had given me years ago, and some of the things needed to fine tune the system. Remember, I'm really just a carb guy, who has 1 of these cars with FI on it. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Bobnotch wrote: |
raygreenwood wrote: |
Bob.....you are on track. I did not realize this discussion was going on here as well or I would just keep it here.
Here was my response this morning in PM.
Quote: |
Yes 13 afr is not bad but at idle it is, fairly rich.
Also bear in mind.....what exhaust system or muffler are you using? What wideband sensor are you reading afr with (It must be a wideband sensor)? Where in the exhaust are you placing the sensor?
With the stock muffler.....the readings from a sensor probe placed in the tailpipe will not be particularly accurate. It can easily be a factor of 1.0 afr....incorrect.
Yes....the cht sensor is a multiplier. What your engine can tolerate will be based upon what your ambient temps are like and what the final combined resistance number drops to when its fully warmed up.
As I noted.....if you can keep the cht resistance total with combined resistor from dropping below about 125 ohms when fully warmed up then that will be good. You adjust the mps from there.
Here is what an adjusting scenario looks like:
There may be a point where the added resistor to the cht makes a good difference......but only so much........and then making a slight adjustment to mps....which can make more improvement but may not make all of the improvement you need....but further adjustment to the mps......then makes it worse.....
..at this point you make a slight adjustment to fuel pressure.
You work in that order. You do not want (as you are finding).....to have to add large volumes of resistance to the cht. You add just enough to keep the cht from dropping you too lean at fully warmed up. Adding a little too much.....causes too rich of a warmup when cold.
How much your system can stand will also depend upon what your ambient temperature is. In places like the central southwest of the usa.....it is so hot...my system requires 125-150 ohms.......and.......typically morning temperatures are about 80-85F at 6:00 am.....so the resistance of the cht does not rise as much when the engine is cool.
If you are in Europe.....and have cool evenings and mornings and moderately warm day times.....this will be hard to balance. You might need 100 ohms resistor when warmed up....but require only 25-50 ohms resistor when its cooled.
One thing that may also help is to disconnect or ballast the other sensor that is plugged into the engine case. This sensor gives between 5-10% extra range to fuel mixture.
With the combination of first adding resistance to cht, then adjusting mps, then slight adjustment to fuel......the last adjustment might be either simply unplugging the other sensor or adding a small or large resistor to it.
In the warmer areas of the usa.....typically I run with a 125 ohm resistor added to cht....mps adjusted to that configuration. .....and in summer.....the temp sensor #1 unplugged. It gets plugged back in during fall, winter and spring. Also let me check my book as to whether I unplug it for warm weather or cold.....but that is the method. Ray |
One problem with the early system is the lack of fine adjustment with the MPS. Contrary to popular portrayal....the late MPS is not JUST a combining of the pressure switch and MPS function.
Yes...it does that combined function but it provides more as well. Typically the separate full load switch on early type 3....is just that.....a full load switch.
In the later MPS, the copper diaphragm is NOT just sensitive to and providing enrichment for...full load vacuum signal. It also provides added enrichment rate at moderate to small throttle movements when pulling away.
Add to this....the later TPS had a more incremental addition of enrichment....not just an off and on function like the two wire early TPS.
So...the early systems were set up to have more "weight" or importance to the baseline fuel mixture setting which is created by resistance programming of the the system based around input from fuel pressure, CHT (temp 2) andd case/intake/ambient (temp 1).
The change point to the system for load are rpm, MPS, full load sensor and TPS....of whih the TPS is pretty much just an on/off switch.
So.....its important that the main fuel mixture baseline is as spot on as possible because the inputs that give change while driving are not very adjustable.
The MPS only has so much load reaction range to vacuum if you have to make the adjusting screw tension too tight or loose.
So....you accomplish this first with the two temp sensors as much as you can.
Whether you do final adjustment with MPS first or fuel pressure tweaks first...will depend on what results you get.
There are other little tuning tweaks but ...they are less normal and I will get into them later if needed. Ray |
And this IS why fuel pressure has to be rock solid and not wavering at all (1 to 2 psi can have an effect).
Also, I had no idea of what he had discussed with you. I was just going off some old info that you had given me years ago, and some of the things needed to fine tune the system. Remember, I'm really just a carb guy, who has 1 of these cars with FI on it. |
Yes....I cannot emphasize that hard enough. The more stable the fuel pressure the better. When these cars and pumps were new...the fuel pressure was pretty dang stable.
Not as stable as it could be with a little additive work...but stable enough to achieve factory tune and smooth running across the board.
If it were a question of tuning for better than factory throttle response and/or performance tuning.....I would say the factory fuel pressure stability is not good enough. But thats not what he is doing....yet.
Oh...and in the first line of that last post...I meant to say that 13:1 AFR was LEAN....not rich. Sorry...my lysdexia was kicking in.
t should run better at idle that lean. From my findings with factory stock D-jet...about 12.5 to 13:1 AFR is how it should be at idle when warmed up. If not it can be too rich in the midrange.
Ray |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
One of the most critical things for proper warmup is to have a correctly functioning correct for fuel injection engine air thermostat in place. Bosch injection is designed to work best at 87 degrees C, so getting there as quickly as possible and then maintaining it is key. On aircooleds, there will be rapid temp spikes but this is to be expected. |
Yes, that's very important, but not just for FI, but for all engines, as engine wear happens most during warm up.
Don't forget, that the CHT likes to "bank heat" during shut down (like while you're in the store), and this can have an affect on how it runs as well. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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ziconylo Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2006 Posts: 88
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Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Ray, all,
thanks for guiding.
My exhaust is performance ISP West http://www.vwispwest.com/AC-1013.html and i had proper mount of sensor at butterfly.
As I said 13 AFR when warmup is great.
Now I was able to make 13.5 and is also working fine.
I had checked 3 CHTs 73 Farenheit ambient temperature and:
1 st. a) With spacer (like the one for porsche 914) 1890 ohms
b.) no spacer 1940 ohms
2nd. a.) with spacer 1780 ohms
b.) no spacer 1740 ohms
3rd. a. with spacer 1950 ohms
b. no spacer 1850 ohms
Theoretically spacer does not add resistance but my measurence shows different. Maybe they are not revelant. But I use now CHT with lowest resistance. I am leaving in mild climate and during daytime we have now 73 Farenheit. Morning are cooler. This setting plus mps set for 13,5 works best. If I use CHT with higher resistance start is much worse. With this CHT is fine.
So now I have good start and after warm up - its looks like I found golden spot for this season. As i am not driving winter or when cold this is ok for me.
BTW - when I disconnect Ambient temp sensor engine wont start. How do you disconnect yours and engine starts? Do you connect it to anything? When I disconnect it on engine running it is fine, engine wont die.
thanks,
jakub |
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tomf51 Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2011 Posts: 34 Location: Calif.
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject: Proper Intake Gaskets |
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What is the proper intake gasket material on D-jet? Mine had silicone on top of spacer and stamped metal gasket underneath. This is not right is it? I had read somewhere, I believe on this thread, about using a roller to coat spacer with some flexible material as opposed to paper gasket, but I can't find it now. Any ideas? |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Proper Intake Gaskets |
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tomf51 wrote: |
What is the proper intake gasket material on D-jet? Mine had silicone on top of spacer and stamped metal gasket underneath. This is not right is it? I had read somewhere, I believe on this thread, about using a roller to coat spacer with some flexible material as opposed to paper gasket, but I can't find it now. Any ideas? |
Paper gaskets on both sides of the phenolic spacer; the gaskets are often bonded to the spacer so a separate gasket isn't needed. You could smear a bit of gasket sealer on both sides but don't use any type of glue. The metal gaskets don't belong on a FI engine. |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Proper Intake Gaskets |
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KTPhil wrote: |
tomf51 wrote: |
What is the proper intake gasket material on D-jet? Mine had silicone on top of spacer and stamped metal gasket underneath. This is not right is it? I had read somewhere, I believe on this thread, about using a roller to coat spacer with some flexible material as opposed to paper gasket, but I can't find it now. Any ideas? |
Paper gaskets on both sides of the phenolic spacer; the gaskets are often bonded to the spacer so a separate gasket isn't needed. You could smear a bit of gasket sealer on both sides but don't use any type of glue. The metal gaskets don't belong on a FI engine. |
Yes, you need the phenolic spacer. It's about 3/16ths of an inch thick, with paper on each side like Phil pointed out. You can use Bug FI spacers if you can find them. I believe there was a mention of it in this thread, but that was 50 or so pages back. Sharkskinman found some new type 3 spacers in Las Vegas, which means they're still out there. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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tomf51 Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2011 Posts: 34 Location: Calif.
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies. I'm pretty sure I have the correct spacers, but the PO had metal gaskets between the spacer and the head. I wonder if that was causing vacuum leaks, considering my tune problems? |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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tomf51 wrote: |
Thanks for the replies. I'm pretty sure I have the correct spacers, but the PO had metal gaskets between the spacer and the head. I wonder if that was causing vacuum leaks, considering my tune problems? |
Likely, yes. |
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tomf51 Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2011 Posts: 34 Location: Calif.
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:19 pm Post subject: Thermostat |
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Another issue has surfaced with the heads off... No thermostat.
The flaps are stuck (?) open, or are they supposed to be very stiff? Also, I think I remember Tram stating that the FI thermostat is different from others. Since I haven't seen many thermostats in the classifieds, can I assume they're hard to come by? It's very hot here (especially in the summer) so it doesn't take much time to get up to temp, but it gets pretty cold in the winter ( cold for me, anyway.) i'd like to address this now while the engine is somewhat dismantled. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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They are around, and a Bug thermostat should work okay. I think it was the late FI Bugs that got the different thermostat. The new style that can fail closed is not preferred. There is a guy making line-new units but they are pricey.
I also live in SoCal and the faster warm-ups (even in summer) can be felt. |
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tomf51 Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2011 Posts: 34 Location: Calif.
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:38 pm Post subject: Phenolic spacers |
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Just discovered another issue: one of the phenolic spacers between the head and intake manifold has broken into pieces. I've looked in the classifieds and aircooled suppliers without any luck. Does anyone know where to source these bits? |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:47 am Post subject: |
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You mean these?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1586654
Fetch the short aluminum tubing pieces that fit in the mounting holes. These metal spacers limit how much crush the phenolic material sees. Maybe yours were missing, and that's why they broke? |
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