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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Brotherbill Reply with quote

69fasty69 wrote:
Ugg.. So 16 hours of diagnosis later..

New engine wiring harness because old one was chopped up
New ECU old one tested bad
New vacuum lines
Cleaned every ground point and terminal and relay and connector that has to do with the engine.

Uninstalled the fuel pump today trying to figure out why it was running but not making fuel pressure after taking it off and cleaning it and bench testing it, finding it good. Put it back on and figured out it was running backwards pushing fuel into the tank pulling it the other way thru the return line.

Ran the battery down to 11 volts testing things. Got my nice charger from my house and hooked it up.. It says terminal clamps reversed.. I look nope the positive terminal is hooked to the red positive charger clamp.. I re-hook them back on with battery disconnected from the car. Same warning light on charger. I get irritated and hook them backwards. It immediately starts charging. I grab my Fluke multi meter. It says the same thing. The battery is assembled backwards. It has the polarity reversed. The case is marked wrong, Even the terminal sizes are backwards. I hook it back to the car and.. It starts right up.
Sometimes the simplest of things are the hardest to find. When you take the most basic things for granted .


How did you diagnose the ECU as bad. It happens...but RARELY. In 36 years of working on D-jet I have only seen two...one struck by lightening...sort of... and the other got wet and corroded.

Dont try to diagnose the ECU until you have a working harness. Ray
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By following the Bently manual. Nothing was right because positive was switched with Negative. It was bad because of that and the smoke comming out of it when they initially installed the defective battery. Its a rare occurrence, i agree.
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 2:49 pm    Post subject: I have a small D-jet issue has to do with idle miss. Reply with quote

When I start the car the AAR is open has the fast idle and no miss. Once the AAR closes and the idle speed is down to the normal 1000 RPM if I put my hand near the exhaust I can feel a slight miss I can also hear it.

It doesn't matter if I drive the car or not . If I sit in the car and raise the idle back up to where the fast idle speed was and even higher I can hear the miss. It's not like one cylinder drops out . I don't feel any miss fire while driving or under load and feeling it at the tail pipe as well as hearing it it does not seem like one cylinder because it's not steady as far as I can tell.

It's not hunting. If I have it in drive at idle it seems smooth. I can only describe it as a no load miss at idle.

After I changed the plug wires it seemed better at least I thought so this was more just my imagination.

This has been going on for a while now and has not gotten any worse.

All the AAR does is allow more air at idle to bypass the IAD idle screw passage. The AAR is electric so it closes pretty fast where the engine is not even close to warm.

One thing I have not tried is when cold is to close the AAR hose off and see how it runs because at that point I will know if the HTS is still cold and not part of the problem . It's just odd because I get in the car start it back out of my garage walk around the rear to lock the lift gate and it's still fast idle and no miss at all . I adjusted the valves 3k ago replaced the plugs and fuel lines and injector seals fuel filter and added clamps the the IAD to runner hoses . I noticed the dist has some play in the shaft when I checked it when I replaced the cap and rotor and have a pertronix in it. I ordered new valve cover gaskets to see if the valves are proper.

It seems it either has something to do with mixture at idle when the AAR closes or the temp of the engine after it's run 5 to 6 minutes .
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: I have a small D-jet issue has to do with idle miss. Reply with quote

blues90 wrote:
I noticed the dist has some play in the shaft when I checked it when I replaced the cap and rotor and have a pertronix in it. I ordered new valve cover gaskets to see if the valves are proper.

It seems it either has something to do with mixture at idle when the AAR closes or the temp of the engine after it's run 5 to 6 minutes .


It is typical for a mis-tuned engine to have a miss that is wrongly attributed to the FI system. FI engines are a little pickier about both vacuum and timing, and you have two suspects here. Vacuum leaks or uneven vacuum (from misadjusted valves) and timing variations can cause your symptoms. Set those right first. Could even be the Pertronix.
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I checked the valves today . After 4,000 miles they were still set fine , not one was tight and not one was loose . Actually the valve cover gaskets were the battle . I used that permatex #2 aircraft crap only one the cover side. The gaskets I got actually fit real good that's a first. I went by the permatex #2 instructions and with the tiny damn tube you punch a hole it the top it was impossible to get a thin bead so I used my fingers to spread it on the gaskets but on the valve cover what a task . I ended up using alcohol to remove it and that took forever then just left the thin coat on the gaskets and let them set while I checked the valves. I tried those little brushes and everything else I could find to spread it thin. I will never use than shit again contact cement works great for me. I just hope they don't leak because of the permatex .

I am beat to death up and down on the creeper.

The distributor is next there is too much play in it , it does not snap back on the cent advance and rocks from side to side on the shaft seems worn out to me either bushings and end is too much side to side who knows if it's the upper shaft of bushings. I have another ready to go. If it still acts up then I will look into that . I doubt I have any vacuum leaks all the hoses and seals only have 4,000 miles on them . Every thing is clamped too.

I also cleaned out the air filter wasn't dirty but I was not certain if I used 30 W or 20/50 so I filled it with new 30W 13 oz like the Bentley states before I filled it to the top if the lowest lip but I think that's to much now it's 1/8" below that lip.
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is little value in chasing the FI until that ignition timing is resolved.
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pulled the dist and it does not have play like I thought . I adjusted the valves they seem slightly loose I hear a slight tapping . I Have it all back together and it runs the same as before.

For some reason if I try to hold the gas steady above idle it still has the same miss it's random one thing I never did before was rev it to 3,000 RPM and let off the throttle and hear a slight pop like a backfire out the tail pipe I didn't see a flame and know I have a slight exhaust leak on the right header to the HE pipe. I don't hear any popping from the exhaust while driving excel or coasting .

For the 73 FI engine I set the timing at 5 degrees before TDC at 800 RPM my vacuum advance does not work it does not hold vacuum but that's not the problem because long ago it would not hold vacuum and ran fine.

I guess I have to keep on searching because something is not right .

I was through this thing back in 2009 because of hunting it's not doing that. I only have 4 k on it since then.
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cold start or an injector dripping?
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Cold start or an injector dripping?


Thanks , I haven't though about that.

Last time in 2009 I had the injectors out when I replaced all the injector seals and fuel lines I checked for a leaking injector but didn't check the cold start . I have a fuel line connected to the cold start but I don't have the power on it the thermal switch hasn't worked for decades .

Thing is which makes things worse I only drive it once a week a few miles so I need to prime the system for it to start other wise I have to crank it to long.

It starts right off even after a drive and sitting 30 minutes . I never see any black smoke out the exhaust . I replaced all the injectors back in 2000 with new bosch not rebuilt as well as the trigger points . I just got back from a short 3 mile drive and it moves pretty good and I watched the timing and it was steady .

The part that bugs me the most is that no load idle miss it's not that I feel it I only know it's there if I stand behind the car and I hear it at the exhaust and feel it if I place my hand near the tail pipe . Also if I have it in park and bring the idle up no load I can hear the miss like un steady running until it reaches 2500 rpm then it goes away. ie I watch the tach I have on the dash and the RPM seems to fluctuate about 100 RPM as if it struggles , it's difficult to describe . I tend to think I have the valves at .007" gap instead of .006" I say this because when I have the .006 feeler in there I can push down on the rocker a bit before it grabs the feeler plus I can hear them ticking but with short 1 and 2 mile drives I don't think the engine is really warmed up.

Do you feel like this is because it's trying to deal with extra fuel until it reaches a higher RPM or a load when it can use this fuel? It's not like hunting where it drops and raises RPM by a lot and tries to quit.
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello guys ,

A friend of mine bought a 1978 t2b westfalia with a 2.0l feul injection engine in it .
The engine starts but wil not run , its stals after 2 or 3 sec .

What did we already tried :

1 :Replaced the whole ignition
2 :Replaced the whole air filter set up with the air filter from my brothers 1978 westy and nothing changed .
3 :Triend my brothers computer and the relay's that are in the left of the engine compartement .

I took out 2 of the feul injectors and the spray feul for a few sec but stop spraying.

What can it be ?
feul pump ? the pump can fill 1.5liters on 1 minute .
feul regulator broken ?

i hope that anyone can help , there is not much info available in belgium Sad
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevinbuske wrote:
Hello guys ,

A friend of mine bought a 1978 t2b westfalia with a 2.0l feul injection engine in it .
The engine starts but wil not run , its stals after 2 or 3 sec .

What did we already tried :

1 :Replaced the whole ignition
2 :Replaced the whole air filter set up with the air filter from my brothers 1978 westy and nothing changed .
3 :Triend my brothers computer and the relay's that are in the left of the engine compartement .

I took out 2 of the feul injectors and the spray feul for a few sec but stop spraying.

What can it be ?
feul pump ? the pump can fill 1.5liters on 1 minute .
feul regulator broken ?

i hope that anyone can help , there is not much info available in belgium Sad


Your injection system is "L-Jet" or "AFC" (air flow control) fuel injection- it is different than Type 3 (Digijet) fuel injection.

That said, I'm experienced in both types, and my first "educated guess" is that you have a vacuum leak someplace.

Run this test:

Remove the small bolt in the pressure test port. There may be pressure there so be prepared for a squirt!

Hook up a fuel pressure gauge and observe. Let us know if the fuel pressure drops off as the engine stalls or if the engine stalls in spite of pressure being present.

Note that unlike D-jet injection your fuel pressure is vacuum controlled and will vary.

Let me know what you find. 33-37 PSI is acceptable (2.35 to 2,65 kg/cm2).
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been surching for someone with a fuel pressure gauge butt no luck .

When i take out the injectors and try to start it they spay a fine clound of fuel .
I installed an other pressure valve and stil no change .

When you talk about a vacuum leak wich hoses would it be ?
The smal ones like on the distributor or the big ones like on the air cleaner ?
Maybe it would be a good idea to replace them ?
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys ,

After replacing the fuelpump the engine started and was running fine .

10min later an accident happend and de car and garage went up in flames Sad


Just wanted to say thanks for the help .


regards kevin
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevinbuske wrote:
Hey guys ,

After replacing the fuelpump the engine started and was running fine .

10min later an accident happend and de car and garage went up in flames Sad


Just wanted to say thanks for the help .


regards kevin


Ummmm... rubber fuel line failure? Shocked
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blues90 wrote:
Tram wrote:
Cold start or an injector dripping?


Thanks , I haven't though about that.

Last time in 2009 I had the injectors out when I replaced all the injector seals and fuel lines I checked for a leaking injector but didn't check the cold start . I have a fuel line connected to the cold start but I don't have the power on it the thermal switch hasn't worked for decades .

Thing is which makes things worse I only drive it once a week a few miles so I need to prime the system for it to start other wise I have to crank it to long.

It starts right off even after a drive and sitting 30 minutes . I never see any black smoke out the exhaust . I replaced all the injectors back in 2000 with new bosch not rebuilt as well as the trigger points . I just got back from a short 3 mile drive and it moves pretty good and I watched the timing and it was steady .

The part that bugs me the most is that no load idle miss it's not that I feel it I only know it's there if I stand behind the car and I hear it at the exhaust and feel it if I place my hand near the tail pipe . Also if I have it in park and bring the idle up no load I can hear the miss like un steady running until it reaches 2500 rpm then it goes away. ie I watch the tach I have on the dash and the RPM seems to fluctuate about 100 RPM as if it struggles , it's difficult to describe . I tend to think I have the valves at .007" gap instead of .006" I say this because when I have the .006 feeler in there I can push down on the rocker a bit before it grabs the feeler plus I can hear them ticking but with short 1 and 2 mile drives I don't think the engine is really warmed up.

Do you feel like this is because it's trying to deal with extra fuel until it reaches a higher RPM or a load when it can use this fuel? It's not like hunting where it drops and raises RPM by a lot and tries to quit.


Tram I disconnected the CSV today plus I adjusted all the valves again because they were a bit loose and I could hear them.

Back in june of 2008 page 65 to past 75 in this very section of the forum bobnotch was having similar issues yet his t3 was bucking and blowing black smoke mine has not problem driving like bucking or black smoke it runs fine at all speeds . I went through this entire system back in 2009 new hoses plugs fuel lines everything because it was hunting at idle . I had the same issue if I un plugged the IAD temp sensor . Just for the hell of it I had it running today and unplugged that sensor and the engine does not hunt like it used to but as soon as I unplug the IAD temp sensor to slight RPM fluctuation about 50 rpm up/down and that feeling that the engine seems to struggle with no load ie it is unsteady from idle to 2500 rpm all that stops and the idle jumps up 200 rpm and everything smooths right out , plug IAD temp sensor back in idle drops and all the slight miss fire and struggle comes back. It's not even a steady miss fire like one cylinder it affects all of them . I do know I went through every single wire in 2009 and could never get this to change , what did change was it was hunting real bad then to the point where it would stall while I opened the garage door but start right up . Bobs is a stick mine is auto trans so at idle I have a load in gear of sorts. Back then I gave up and kept driving it an the hunting almost stopped . It's been running like it is now for a good long time I just ignored it. I only noticed it walking around back to unlock the lift gate I could hear the erratic miss then began to focus in on it.

I know the IAD temp sensor with the 2 wires is just a resistance read by the ECU it just uses 2 wires instead on 1 like the HTS . I have all the proper E system parts for my 73 T3. I even checked everything from the ECU unplugged to each component and all grounds and readings were dead on even tried another MPS I have did the same thing and another ECU . As far as I can tell when the sensors warm up they lean out the system . I am going to remove the injectors to see what the spray looks like once I get the new inject seals . The odd thing is before I changed the fuel filter and lines and plugs it ran fine I just did this because it was past due. I even tightens the injector plug metal terminals and cleaned them nothing changed . It's not intermittent . My fuel pressure was 29 PSI . JUst as a reference here is the post from 2009 .

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=353320&highlight=
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today I bumped the fuel pressure up from 30 PSI to 32 PSI . At the same time I had a vacuum gauge connected to a T on the MPS vacuum line.

One odd thing to check to see if the MPS was holding vacuum I used a fuel line clamp to pinch the line and it holds vacuum but the odd thing is the second time I did this just before the engine stalled I had the MPS vacuum line almost pinched off and the engine RPM went up and the idle smoothed out , seems like restricting the MPS line helps the engine run better almost the same result as removing the plug off the IAD temp sensor.

Does this sound like an problem with the MPS?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blues90 wrote:
Today I bumped the fuel pressure up from 30 PSI to 32 PSI . At the same time I had a vacuum gauge connected to a T on the MPS vacuum line.

One odd thing to check to see if the MPS was holding vacuum I used a fuel line clamp to pinch the line and it holds vacuum but the odd thing is the second time I did this just before the engine stalled I had the MPS vacuum line almost pinched off and the engine RPM went up and the idle smoothed out , seems like restricting the MPS line helps the engine run better almost the same result as removing the plug off the IAD temp sensor.

Does this sound like an problem with the MPS?


Which MPS do you have? C or E?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
blues90 wrote:
Today I bumped the fuel pressure up from 30 PSI to 32 PSI . At the same time I had a vacuum gauge connected to a T on the MPS vacuum line.

One odd thing to check to see if the MPS was holding vacuum I used a fuel line clamp to pinch the line and it holds vacuum but the odd thing is the second time I did this just before the engine stalled I had the MPS vacuum line almost pinched off and the engine RPM went up and the idle smoothed out , seems like restricting the MPS line helps the engine run better almost the same result as removing the plug off the IAD temp sensor.

Does this sound like an problem with the MPS?


Which MPS do you have? C or E?


I have an E . I have the one that came on the car which has been off it since 95 it's also an E . Just to see I plugged it in and the engine smoothed out and there was no more vacuum gauge fluctuation . Odd part is with the one on the car which is riveted together with the vacuum gauge on I pinch off the line between the gauge T fitting between the gauge line to the IAD and the vacuum stays up to maybe 15 HG and it will stall out but the gauge stays at 15 HG with this old one I pinch off the same line and the vacuum drops on the gauge to 5 HG and and the engine stalls out then it drops to 0 HG like it's not holding vacuum. I can't tell this way if the MPS is holding vacuum. It seems to if I suck on a hose attached to the MPS . It's probably not the way to check for a MPS vacuum leaks I don't have a hand vacuum pump . I really think the MPS is the entire problem I am having here. I removed the back cover off the old one and it only had a bit of oil in it so I wiped it out . I saw the flat O ring was not as thick as it probably should be so I put a small amount of silicone on the back cover lip . Maybe the way I was checking the MPS for a vacuum leak was wrong all along .
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blues90 wrote:
Tram wrote:
blues90 wrote:
Today I bumped the fuel pressure up from 30 PSI to 32 PSI . At the same time I had a vacuum gauge connected to a T on the MPS vacuum line.

One odd thing to check to see if the MPS was holding vacuum I used a fuel line clamp to pinch the line and it holds vacuum but the odd thing is the second time I did this just before the engine stalled I had the MPS vacuum line almost pinched off and the engine RPM went up and the idle smoothed out , seems like restricting the MPS line helps the engine run better almost the same result as removing the plug off the IAD temp sensor.

Does this sound like an problem with the MPS?


Which MPS do you have? C or E?


I have an E . I have the one that came on the car which has been off it since 95 it's also an E . Just to see I plugged it in and the engine smoothed out and there was no more vacuum gauge fluctuation . Odd part is with the one on the car which is riveted together with the vacuum gauge on I pinch off the line between the gauge T fitting between the gauge line to the IAD and the vacuum stays up to maybe 15 HG and it will stall out but the gauge stays at 15 HG with this old one I pinch off the same line and the vacuum drops on the gauge to 5 HG and and the engine stalls out then it drops to 0 HG like it's not holding vacuum. I can't tell this way if the MPS is holding vacuum. It seems to if I suck on a hose attached to the MPS . It's probably not the way to check for a MPS vacuum leaks I don't have a hand vacuum pump . I really think the MPS is the entire problem I am having here. I removed the back cover off the old one and it only had a bit of oil in it so I wiped it out . I saw the flat O ring was not as thick as it probably should be so I put a small amount of silicone on the back cover lip . Maybe the way I was checking the MPS for a vacuum leak was wrong all along .


If it runs better and is straightened out with the other "E" then yes I'd say that was the culprit. As our cars age, the MPS is becoming the Achilles' heel of the FI system.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
blues90 wrote:
Tram wrote:
blues90 wrote:
Today I bumped the fuel pressure up from 30 PSI to 32 PSI . At the same time I had a vacuum gauge connected to a T on the MPS vacuum line.

One odd thing to check to see if the MPS was holding vacuum I used a fuel line clamp to pinch the line and it holds vacuum but the odd thing is the second time I did this just before the engine stalled I had the MPS vacuum line almost pinched off and the engine RPM went up and the idle smoothed out , seems like restricting the MPS line helps the engine run better almost the same result as removing the plug off the IAD temp sensor.

Does this sound like an problem with the MPS?


Which MPS do you have? C or E?


I have an E . I have the one that came on the car which has been off it since 95 it's also an E . Just to see I plugged it in and the engine smoothed out and there was no more vacuum gauge fluctuation . Odd part is with the one on the car which is riveted together with the vacuum gauge on I pinch off the line between the gauge T fitting between the gauge line to the IAD and the vacuum stays up to maybe 15 HG and it will stall out but the gauge stays at 15 HG with this old one I pinch off the same line and the vacuum drops on the gauge to 5 HG and and the engine stalls out then it drops to 0 HG like it's not holding vacuum. I can't tell this way if the MPS is holding vacuum. It seems to if I suck on a hose attached to the MPS . It's probably not the way to check for a MPS vacuum leaks I don't have a hand vacuum pump . I really think the MPS is the entire problem I am having here. I removed the back cover off the old one and it only had a bit of oil in it so I wiped it out . I saw the flat O ring was not as thick as it probably should be so I put a small amount of silicone on the back cover lip . Maybe the way I was checking the MPS for a vacuum leak was wrong all along .


If it runs better and is straightened out with the other "E" then yes I'd say that was the culprit. As our cars age, the MPS is becoming the Achilles' heel of the FI system.


I used a same electric vacuum pump and tried that , it pulled 20Hg and if I pinched off the line going to the old MPS it leaked down not right away it took over a minute to drop to 5Hg . Mine does not have the large outer stop like the units I have seen , there are no vent holes on either housing .

All I know is it clears up the unstable no load running and the popping I get letting off the gas . If I rev the engine I get no black smoke .

I am not really sure what to do here. I can't tell if it's running lean or rich. All I do know is pulling the plug off the IAD temp sensor makes it a bit more rich and with the old MPS it runs the same as with the IAD temp sensor unplugged. I don't want to tamper with the one I have in there now or I'll have nothing to run on.

I'm just going to tie the old one next to the one in there and drive it and see what it's like then.
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