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Go-SpeedRacer
Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2006
Posts: 79
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 Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: Porsche 1.7 liter engine |
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I ran across a friend who owns a junk yard, when I called in regards to some 944 trailing arms for my Thing, he told me he did not have any, but he did have a Porsche 914 that ran good with good compression, and said that the motor should drop right in, more or less. The question for the Jedi Masters, is this a good motor to put in, he will probably let me have it for a couple hundred, so its not going to cost much, but will the damn thing mount up or in or is it even worth the grief of fooling with, and any idea what type of power this motor puts out. I already have plans to buy a new trany, please advise.
Thanks, |
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Ferretkona
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Joined: December 03, 2005
Posts: 1306
Location: Columbia, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Yes, a good motor. Same motor mounts. You might want to search the forum here for type 4 conversions. I guess many swap out the cooling for type 1 tin. I think keeping the type 4 tin means you have to trim some sheetmeatal on the thing.
I would keep the fuel injection if it is intact. |
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iltis74
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Joined: November 20, 2003
Posts: 826
Location: Anchorage, AK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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According to my book it is 90x66 with 76 SAE BHP @ 4900rpm. No mention of the torque value, but the most sited reason for going Type 4 is the superior torque curve. It's really a shame these babies didn't come with one from the factory. Oh well, most of the crap laying around my garage is Type 1 anyways. The DTM cooling shroud is generaly considered hands down the best, but there are cheaper ways to go about it. It is actually a rather painless swap that nobody complains about afterwards, I've noticed.
http://shoptalkforums.com/
has a couple Type 4 forums, though one has been shut down and moved to-
http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/
I think it would be worth picking up for a couple hundred and playing with. |
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Ian Epperson
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Joined: January 12, 2005
Posts: 2262
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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It's a longer road than the cooling tin. But, to start with the cooling tin, you can do the Joe Cali conversion (lotta welding, but uses only T1 and T4 parts, questionable cooling); you can also do a porsche style cooling shroud which gives that big honkin fan in the middle of the engine; or you can do a DTM shroud and conversion kit from Jake Raby.
I'd recommend Jake's kit - I think it's better engineered.
Note that you're talkin $1500ish for the conversion kits and/or lots of time. Also, for most of the conversions, you can't use the mechanical fuel pump - plan on putting in an electric one.
The exhaust is much different on a T4 than a T1 - the exhaust exits the bottom of the engine, not front and back. You can get an A1 exhaust header, but because the Thing doesn't have the rear apron that a bug has, the A1's muffler BEGINS past the back bumper - it's entirely outside the car! The only person who (now) makes a system that works with a Thing is Chris over at Tangerine Racing. Beautiful system, plan on spending another $2k.
You may also have to have an external oil filter and oil cooler. A little more time and money.
Now that you can make more power, how are the tranny mounts? Can your car successfully transfer that power to the wheels? The porsche has additional engine mounts to deal with this - you need to plan on either welding those mounts somehow to your car or beefing up the tranny mounts or both.
I don't want to turn you off the conversion, but please don't think it's going to be a drop-in. I've spent a lot of money on my conversion, and it's still not complete, nor have I finished spending the money! |
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Thingggg
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Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Read this whole site:
http://www.tunacan.net/t4/
Get this book
http://www.nextgen-usa.com/
Another great read
http://www.aircooledtech.com/type4_upright_conversion/
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=1
Definatly is not shutdown--mega helpfull experts
You can do it cheep if you keep it stock and buld your own upright tin.
Bolt on DTM cooling is about $800 from Jake Raby last time I looked.
A cheap exaust for stock motor is 412 header. You probably want a better muffler than this one though. Anyway this will show you how the exahust ports come out the bottom of the heads like told above.
These guys say the torque is what is what is so great about the conversion.
I am doing a 2200, (76x96), with 2.0 914 ported heads and 86a webcam. Might use Jakes econo exhust or Trimill. Pobably will use DTM cooling. |
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Ferretkona
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Joined: December 03, 2005
Posts: 1306
Location: Columbia, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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I remember some custom type 4 heads with type 1 exhaust ports. I seen them at the old Johnny's Speed & Chrome and in the magazine Hot VW's.
Whatever happened to Johnnys? |
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Ian Epperson
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Joined: January 12, 2005
Posts: 2262
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I stumbled upon some T4 heads with T1 ports once, but the price was VERY high - like $5k! They were great looking heads (the T1 ports weren't their only great quality) but pushing past the price of a great, custom built exhaust. |
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Ian Epperson
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Joined: January 12, 2005
Posts: 2262
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| alsehendo34 wrote: |
A cheap exaust for stock motor is 412 header. You probably want a better muffler than this one though. Anyway this will show you how the exahust ports come out the bottom of the heads like told above.
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Note that from the end of the frame horns (edge of the engine case) to the back edge of the Thing is only about 21 1/2 inches - anything past about 25" is past the end of the bumper. This'll be close, and you may not have much room for a sizable muffler unless you wrap the pipe forward again along the passenger side, then back into a bigger muffler. Though, that'll make it hard to set the valves - ah, tradeoffs!
Here's the exhaust system that Chris built for me:
(stainless muffler, ceramic coated header)
Those tips exist between the tubes of my rear tube bumper. They're larger than the stock holes, so if you had a stock bumper you'll have to modify it. |
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Ferretkona
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Joined: December 03, 2005
Posts: 1306
Location: Columbia, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Ian Epperson wrote: |
| Note that from the end of the frame horns (edge of the engine case) to the back edge of the Thing is only about 21 1/2 inches - anything past about 25" is past the end of the bumper. This'll be close, and you may not have much room for a sizable muffler unless you wrap the pipe forward again along the passenger side, then back into a bigger muffler. Though, that'll make it hard to set the valves - ah, tradeoffs! |
That's the beauty of a late T4 - hydraulic lifters.
One drawback on the T4 is reduced clearance because of the exhaust. |
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Woreign
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Joined: June 04, 2006
Posts: 2841
Location: Crestview FL
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Couldn't you reverse the header pipes so that they point toward the front of the car and then do a 180 degree bend and attach twin mufflers like '73 and earlier Things? |
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Thingggg
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Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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My picture was just an example of using 412 heater box internals used for stubs, you could make the actual primaries about any length you wanted—in fact these were cut 3” and flanges rewelded. This one somebody used on a bug. I think the mufler usualy is kind off below bumper when using a header like this. I also agree that this ground clearance is more of an issue on a Thing than other VWs. Thing exhaust like Ian's would be much better and I will do somthing similar--maybe contact Cris.
The T1 type heads are for racing. I read they won't cool well enough for street use--not that I could aford some!!. They are built by Pauter.
http://www.pauter.com/vw_parts.htm
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Go-SpeedRacer
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Joined: December 31, 2006
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Thanks everyone, I did a little research this morning myself before I came here, and the 1.7 liter only make 1679cc of power, its the 2.0 liter that gets you the 1991cc. Seems to me, that using the 1.7 liter engine is a lot of brain damage for not a lot of power, where as if this was the 2.0 liter, I could see the nice step up in power to make it worth the grief.
I am not too worried about the motor fitting, since I am not using stock bumpers, and will have the 3" lift on chassis, 1/3 the motor will likely be hanging out the bottom anyway. But it still seems like the 1.7 liter is going to fall short of my power needs anyway. Guess I will skip it, but maybe have my buddy keep an eye out for a 2.0 liter is he runs across one. I am still a good way off from needing a motor, still working on chassis at this point.
This buddy of mine is such a good guy, 6 months ago I was complaining how my diesel Kubota motor was starting to fail on my mulcher, and he gave me a Mercedes 240D diesel motor to replace it. So i went from a 34HP Kubota motor that I had to run wide open to keep up, to a 66HP Mercedes motor that we run at about 65% power, and is half as loud, and runs oh so smooth. Just wish I could slap one of those diesel motors in my Thing, life would be sweet.
Thanks again everyone, really appreciate the wisdom. |
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markie61
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Joined: April 11, 2005
Posts: 583
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| Go-SpeedRacer wrote: |
| Just wish I could slap one of those diesel motors in my Thing, life would be sweet. |
I would love that too! Specifically, I would like to use biodiesel in it. I used 5 gallons in my tractor once and it ran like a champ - just made me hungry from the yummy fried-food smell.
_________________
Whut is that-there Thang!?
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Chicks dig my Thing - so what if it's little and yellow...!? |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| That's the beauty of a late T4 - hydraulic lifters. |
Nope, thats the wost thing VW ever did for these engines. It was done for sales, nothing more.
| Quote: |
| One drawback on the T4 is reduced clearance because of the exhaust. |
Most TIV headers have better clearance than the TI engines, especially with a system like Ian is using, his exhaust fits very high into the engine bay, the oil sump is lower than any part of that system, I have used many of them.
DO NOT look at the HP of that 1700 TIV and judge things only from it. What you can't see from the ratings is the absolutely flat torque curve of the 1700 TIV compared to the 1600 TI and at which points the two make their best torque.
Bolting a 1700 engine in place will make one think they have much more HP than they really do in a 181, thats because the TORQUE is ewhat counts and with the TIV the net torque as well as where the torque is made is a huge improvement.
BTW- The exhaust port location of a TI engine is one of the reasons why it doesn't cool well, it can't be surrounded with enough cooling fins and the ones it does have caqn't run around all sides of the port. This was evident when i was doing my cooling system testing on both TI and TIV engines and covered engines with up to 34 sensors to see what ran the hottest and where.
The exhaust port is the hottest, most heat soaked portion of any cylinder head, placing the exhaust underneath the head allowed the cooling air to travel all around the outside of the port and shed heat, that heat was then blown under the car and away from the engine, the TI exhaust port location does NOT do this.
In 2002 I created a TIV head with a TI exhaust port, the idea was abandoned after one test engine was built with a billet head that we could not keep cool enough in the exhaust port area, even after using fins and electronic grade heat sinks to help shed heat.. When that exhaust port runs hot, the entire head becomes heat soaked much faster, especially in a higher load application, like in a 181.
That billet head did you a decent net head temperature, but with the temperature of the exhaust port staying elevated it negatively impacted the expansion and contraction of the head and it was proven that it would never live 100K, and thats always our goal, despite power output.
There is a good reason why first generation VW and Porsche engines (356 and Type 1) used side exiting exhausts... There is also a reason why second generation VW and Posche engines used bottom exiting exhaust (911 and Type 4). Continental and Lycoming aircraft engines also use bottom exiting exhausts... Its al about shedding heat from the exhaust port area!
BTW- Race heads don't matter- they don't see heat soak in their 1320' of glory, but we do after hours of driving on end, especially at elevated power levels.
Do the Type 4, amking a "481" is a wonderful thing! My 181 with a 3 Liter Type 4 daily driver will be on the road in July or so after 7 years of resto!
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Thingggg
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Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: |
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914 1.7 Specs--better than bus!
80 HP at 4900 rpm
13.50 mkg at 2700 rpm
http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/technical_specs/914_17_18_tech_specs.htm
I don't think you will make these #s out of a 1679cc T1 without a lot of work. That being said adding a 2.0 crank and rods, which is easy to do, would give you a great bump. This motor gives a lot off grunt down low if thats what you want.
If you really want to go T4 and you get this cheep I would reconsider. A 2.0 crank and rods will drop in and the heads can be cut to fit a new set of 2.0 or even 96mm PCs. 914 motors also have not lugged a 4000+ Vans around for years so the cases usually are in much better shape. If I was around I would probably snach it up for $200--if it is really from a 914. The flywheel will tell you if it's from a 914 or bus.
Note:
I have a 412 and have had a 914 so I am partial to the T4 motor, others won't give them the time of day.
Last edited by Thingggg on Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Like I said, if you could see the power below the rating numbers you'd understand the reason why the TI spanks the 1600 TI so easily- especially in drivability.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Thingggg
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Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Just wish I could slap one of those diesel motors in my Thing |
Why not is it too big. Maybee these folks could build you a one off a kind adapter.
http://www.kennedyeng.com/ |
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Go-SpeedRacer
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Joined: December 31, 2006
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Wow Jake, you make a tough case to go T4.
You mentioned that you had a 3 liter that you were building for your 181, are you building it to be 3 liter, or are you referring to a 2.4 liter or 2.7 liter, it looks like in 1972, they made a 2.4 & 2.7 liter motor that puts out some crazy insane HP, 190HP & 210HP respectively. That kind of HP in a 181 would be almost unthinkable.
Thanks again for your insight. |
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Ian Epperson
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Joined: January 12, 2005
Posts: 2262
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Go-SpeedRacer wrote: |
| They made a 2.4 & 2.7 liter motor that puts out some crazy insane HP, 190HP & 210HP respectively. That kind of HP in a 181 would be almost unthinkable. |
Oh, I'm thinking a LOT about it.  The 2270 I bought from Jake made 170HP on the dyno with an A1 header - I may be able to squeeze 10-20 more HP out of it with that Tangerine header. Still haven't driven it though.
When Jake says 3 liter, he probably means 3.0 or better  |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Mine is a MassIVe 3 liter, of course thats a Type 4.
After 2.5 years of development this combination is now ready to be sold to the public in it's final daily driver state..
My 181 will be doing a lot of towing and thats the main emphases on this "481" build...
At 3 Liters the engine is still very reliable, has a great powerband and with my roller cam and etc should live 80-100K, thats what I'll be fining out with the engine in my "481" as a full time driver.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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