| Author |
Message |
Gerrelt
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2004
Posts: 682
Location: The Netherlands
|
 Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: Watercooled beetle fest (sorry, no new beetles, please) |
 |
|
Alfa Romeo:
Subaru:
VW wbx:
VW Golf (Rabbit):
(yes, unmodified engine lid can be closed, gearbox moved forward)
Running for cover now..... 
_________________
homepage
_________________ |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mike yapps
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2004
Posts: 514
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Some of them are really nice installs, nice detail. But I must ask ... Um Why?  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gerrelt
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2004
Posts: 682
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mike yapps wrote: |
| Some of them are really nice installs, nice detail. But I must ask ... Um Why? |
Without wanting to start a Watercooled - Aircooled debate...:
Cheap and reliable power. The price of a Type 1 or Type 4 engine with the same performance & reliability is far more then one of these conversions.
And you can get parts at your local parts dealer instead of specialised shops.
These engines are factory made and tested for lots of miles and circumstances.
_________________
homepage
_________________ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bryan67
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2003
Posts: 2942
Location: Fresno, Ca.
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
No thanks. Air cooled is just as reliable as water. Maybe more so.
_________________
If you`re going to do something, do it right. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
der58SC
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2006
Posts: 1359
Location: Oceanside, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Alfa Romeo engines look like the same size as an air cooled. Is this right? I bet my father-in-law would like to see that. He was thinking of putting a New Beetle engine in his 64 bus. 
_________________
Like a midget at a urinal, I'm always on my toes
KCCO!!
Strictly Vintage 2s |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mike yapps
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2004
Posts: 514
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gerrelt wrote: |
| mike yapps wrote: |
| Some of them are really nice installs, nice detail. But I must ask ... Um Why? |
Without wanting to start a Watercooled - Aircooled debate...:
Cheap and reliable power. The price of a Type 1 or Type 4 engine with the same performance & reliability is far more then one of these conversions.
And you can get parts at your local parts dealer instead of specialised shops.
These engines are factory made and tested for lots of miles and circumstances. |
Here in the states it's much easier to find VW parts than it is to find Alfa Romeo parts, especially at the local parts store. Plus ya gotta deal with all those extra parts like a radiator, waterpump, hoses.... 
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gerrelt
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2004
Posts: 682
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| der58SC wrote: |
| The Alfa Romeo engines look like the same size as an air cooled. Is this right? I bet my father-in-law would like to see that. He was thinking of putting a New Beetle engine in his 64 bus. |
See my (or send him my) site, I am building a Alfa Romeo 33 engine (1351 cc, 90 hp) in
my beetle.
| mike yapps wrote: |
Here in the states it's much easier to find VW parts than it is to find Alfa Romeo parts, especially at the local parts store. Plus ya gotta deal with all those extra parts like a radiator, waterpump, hoses....
|
I always liked that ad!
Well, I am in the Netherlands, no aircooled parts anymore at my local
parts store. The VW dealer has less and less, or doesn't want to go
through the hassle of ordering that old stuff.
OK, maybe not much Alfa Romeo parts in the states, but what about
Subaru?
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| No thanks. Air cooled is just as reliable as water. Maybe more so. |
You could argue about reliability over the Alfa Romeo engine, but what about the Subaru?
But...we'e getting off-topic, this ain't a watercooled-aircooled battle rant, but a "show me
watercooled beetles"-thread.
_________________
homepage
_________________ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gerrelt
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2004
Posts: 682
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Mazda rotary:
Subaru:
Toyota:
Volkswagen WBX turbo:
_________________
homepage
_________________ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
der58SC
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2006
Posts: 1359
Location: Oceanside, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gerrelt wrote: |
Volkswagen WBX turbo:
|
now we are talking.
_________________
Like a midget at a urinal, I'm always on my toes
KCCO!!
Strictly Vintage 2s |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
spoon
Samba Penetrator
Joined: September 08, 2005
Posts: 1458
Location: Monterey, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gerrelt wrote: |
Mazda rotary:
|
A Mazda rotary (say, a 13B from an '02 RX-7) would be a prefect swap. That tiny little 1.3 liter motor would look sweet under those decklids, if done right. 
_________________
Pit Bull Myths, Busted!
http://www.badrap.org/monster-myths
| EverettB wrote: |
| Type 3 > Type 1 |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mustard_madman
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006
Posts: 695
Location: fargo
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| spoon wrote: |
| Gerrelt wrote: |
Mazda rotary:
|
A Mazda rotary (say, a 13B from an '02 RX-7) would be a prefect swap. That tiny little 1.3 liter motor would look sweet under those decklids, if done right. |
They didnt have an RX7 in 2002 (at least in the US)
The 13b was the OEM motor in the RX7 FCs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
spoon
Samba Penetrator
Joined: September 08, 2005
Posts: 1458
Location: Monterey, CA
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mustard_madman wrote: |
| spoon wrote: |
| Gerrelt wrote: |
Mazda rotary:
|
A Mazda rotary (say, a 13B from an '02 RX-7) would be a prefect swap. That tiny little 1.3 liter motor would look sweet under those decklids, if done right. |
They didnt have an RX7 in 2002 (at least in the US)
The 13b was the OEM motor in the RX7 FCs |
...and FD's.
The RX-7 was produced and sold under the Mazda name until 2002... yep, in Japan.
_________________
Pit Bull Myths, Busted!
http://www.badrap.org/monster-myths
| EverettB wrote: |
| Type 3 > Type 1 |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bryan67
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2003
Posts: 2942
Location: Fresno, Ca.
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The way I see it is... if you want a Mazda, Subaru, Ford, Alfa, or even a water cooled VW... BUY ONE. Don`t do some kind of Frankenstein motor swap.
_________________
If you`re going to do something, do it right. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mustard_madman
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006
Posts: 695
Location: fargo
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| spoon wrote: |
| mustard_madman wrote: |
| spoon wrote: |
| Gerrelt wrote: |
Mazda rotary:
|
A Mazda rotary (say, a 13B from an '02 RX-7) would be a prefect swap. That tiny little 1.3 liter motor would look sweet under those decklids, if done right. |
They didnt have an RX7 in 2002 (at least in the US)
The 13b was the OEM motor in the RX7 FCs |
...and FD's.
The RX-7 was produced and sold under the Mazda name until 2002... yep, in Japan. |
Yeah, the FD also. I shoulda known better. I know a couple of guys who ran an RX& repair performance shop where I live.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gerrelt
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2004
Posts: 682
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| The way I see it is... if you want a Mazda, Subaru, Ford, Alfa, or even a water cooled VW... BUY ONE. Don`t do some kind of Frankenstein motor swap. |
Lighten up man....
These people are putting modern engines with more power in their beetle. The fact that it's an engine of another make, is just a detail.
_________________
homepage
_________________ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gary
Person of Interest
Joined: November 01, 2002
Posts: 17069
Location: 127.0.0.1
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| The way I see it is... if you want a Mazda, Subaru, Ford, Alfa, or even a water cooled VW... BUY ONE. Don`t do some kind of Frankenstein motor swap. |
You obviously haven't been to Shop Talk Forum's "Conversion Perversion" forum. With your line of thinking, people shouldn't upgrade to a 1776, 1835, a 1902 nor even perform a Porsche swap. It's not your car, so STFU.
Good work, Gerrelt.
This has me intrigued (I am a big fan of FI conversions). Is there an adapter plate to use the stock VW transmission? I would love to see that installation from the underside.
_________________
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gerrelt
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2004
Posts: 682
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Icy wrote: |
Good work, Gerrelt.
This has me intrigued (I am a big fan of FI conversions). Is there an adapter plate to use the stock VW transmission? I would love to see that installation from the underside.
|
Thanks Icy,
I am also building a Alfa Romeo engine in my beetle. It will not look as pretty as the one in the picture, but it is also injected.
You can buy an adapter plate plus an extension for the flywheel. This is the adapter plate:
It's got the bolt patern of the VW gearbox on one side and the bolt patern of the Alfa engine on the other.
And this is the Alfa flywheel plus extension to get the beetle clutch and pressure plate close enough to the gearbox axle and throw-out bearing arm:
I think the extension is quite beefy...I hope it won't be too heavy.
And here it is mounted to the engine and ready to go in:
This is how far the project is at the moment:
Note the position of my radiator.... A lot of people think this won't work, but I allready had contact with a couple of people who had the radiator in the parcel shelf area and said that it worked fine.
The last thing to do is create an exhaust.
See my page for more details (click on the picture). There is also a part ("buy adapter kit") about the adapter kit.
_________________
homepage
_________________ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gary
Person of Interest
Joined: November 01, 2002
Posts: 17069
Location: 127.0.0.1
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Gerrelt,
How difficult will it be to service the engine? How is the ground clearance for the underside of the engine, and did you have to replumb for the oil filter? I am unfamiliar with Alfa engines. How many litres is the engine you're stuffing into your Beetle, and how do you expect it to perform as far as torque output? The one item I would recommend is making the rear apron removable, but overall that is very cleanly done.
_________________
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gerrelt
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2004
Posts: 682
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Icy wrote: |
Gerrelt,
How difficult will it be to service the engine? How is the ground clearance for the underside of the engine, and did you have to replumb for the oil filter? I am unfamiliar with Alfa engines. How many litres is the engine you're stuffing into your Beetle, and how do you expect it to perform as far as torque output? The one item I would recommend is making the rear apron removable, but overall that is very cleanly done. |
The engine can be serviced very easy. The oil filler, oil filter, coolant reservoir, distributor belts and plugs can be reached without trouble. It doesn't have a distributor (wasted spark ignition), it has hydraulic valves and it comes standard with an oil filter. So, the ignition is always correct (controlled by the cpu), the valves don't require adjusting and the oil doesn't have be changed as frequently as with a beetle engine.
It has really good ground clearance, the sump doesn't even have to be changed. It is just as low as a standard VW beetle engine.
The engine I am using is a 1351 cc engine. It is called a 1.4 here in the Netherlands (and a 1.3 in other countries.. ). It has 90 hp (66 kW @ 6000 rpm) and 113 Nm (@ 4500 rpm) of torque. And those are factory figures, with a catalyc converter, which I won't be using. So it should have sligthly better performance than that.
It uses 7,7 litres of fuel (octan 95) every 100 km, I don't know how to re-calculate it into miles per gallon... And that's in the original car (Alfa Romeo 33), which is 100 kg heavier.
The rear apron is removable. So are the rear decklid hinge pins.
I can recommend making the rear apron removable to everyone, it make removing the engine sooo much easier!
_________________
homepage
_________________ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gary
Person of Interest
Joined: November 01, 2002
Posts: 17069
Location: 127.0.0.1
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gerrelt wrote: |
| Icy wrote: |
Gerrelt,
How difficult will it be to service the engine? How is the ground clearance for the underside of the engine, and did you have to replumb for the oil filter? I am unfamiliar with Alfa engines. How many litres is the engine you're stuffing into your Beetle, and how do you expect it to perform as far as torque output? The one item I would recommend is making the rear apron removable, but overall that is very cleanly done. |
The engine can be serviced very easy. The oil filler, oil filter, coolant reservoir, distributor belts and plugs can be reached without trouble. It doesn't have a distributor (wasted spark ignition), it has hydraulic valves and it comes standard with an oil filter. So, the ignition is always correct (controlled by the cpu), the v
alves don't require adjusting and the oil doesn't have be changed as frequently as with a beetle engine.
It has really good ground clearance, the sump doesn't even have to be changed. It is just as low as a standard VW beetle engine.
The engine I am using is a 1351 cc engine. It is called a 1.4 here in the Netherlands (and a 1.3 in other countries.. ). It has 90 hp (66 kW @ 6000 rpm) and 113 Nm (@ 4500 rpm) of torque. And those are factory figures, with a catalyc converter, which I won't be using. So it should have sligthly better performance than that.
It uses 7,7 litres of fuel (octan 95) every 100 km, I don't know how to re-calculate it into miles per gallon... And that's in the original car (Alfa Romeo 33), which is 100 kg heavier.
The rear apron is removable. So are the rear decklid hinge pins.
I can recommend making the rear apron removable to everyone, it make removing the engine sooo much easier! |
Wow. That is very interesting. Did you have to compensate for any Intake Air Sensors? What year vehicle is the engine suited (meaning what was it's original destination)? I bet that engine makes the vehicle a lot more fun to drive.
I ran some rough numbers, and it appears that you are achieving ~31mpg. Very impressive 
_________________
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
