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klokard
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2005
Posts: 158
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 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: Freeway Flyer tranny in a 181 |
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| I am suprised I don't read more posts about 181 owners installing Freeway Flyer trannies. I drive my car daily since I am in SoCal and would like to reduce engine RPM's while cruisin the FWY. Has anyone dropped in a Freeway Flyer? Feedback? How about just changing out the R&P? I have a '74 that is bone stock including wheel size. Any and all opinions are appreciated. Thanks. |
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uberautowerks
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2005
Posts: 1600
Location: Longmont Co
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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A freeway flyer in our Things is super simple, any (I think) late model, single diff-cover beetle trans will have the "free flyer" gears. You'll need the Thing nose cone and CV flanges.
Oh yeah, I've put one in and it's awesome! But use stock-ish tires.
_________________
--- The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair.
- Douglas Adams -
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'74 Thing (White)
'71 Single cab (White too)
'70 Weekender (White three)
'05 Evolution VIII (White also!!!)
'68 F-250 (White over black) |
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MedicTed
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2005
Posts: 2110
Location: King of Prussia, PA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:32 am Post subject: |
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A freeway flyer trans indicates that 4th gear has been changed to a higher ratio (lower number) gear. The problem with them is that it creates a larger difference between 3rd and 4th gears and it will not pull hills in 4th as well as stock. I would swap to a standard T1 trans or a higher ring gear. Remember that the Things were designed for military use. And as such, are overall geared lower for more umph (highly technical term, I know).
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Ted Wojton
70 VW Bus Westfalia camper
2003 GMC Sierra |
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caspar
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2004
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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i have a freeway flyer in my '73. i have an 1776 motor. so far its working out great. but i would put bigger than stock engine with a freeway flyer.
email me for any more info r post
[email protected]
caspar |
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Towel Rail
Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 4622
Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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There's a good reason Thing drivers with stock engines don't install freeway flyers! 
Mine came to me with a Karmann Ghia transmission installed. With a 3.88 R&P, it's geared "up" enough to go fast, but the engine struggles with the taller gears. End result -- acceleration is terrible, and I never know when I'm going to get squished by a semi. 
_________________
1974 Thing -- under the knife
1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car
049 > 070 > 053 > 009 |
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uberautowerks
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2005
Posts: 1600
Location: Longmont Co
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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If your paying for a freeway flyer that only has forth changed your getting ripped. A freeway flyer should be all the late model gears, 1st to 4th and the R&P, in an earlier housing.
And why would a stock motor with a late bug trans perform any different in a Thing or a bug. Given that both have stock tires. If anything the Thing with 14" wheels should have a bit shorter gear with it's slightly smaller OD tire. Thus giving it a bit more RPM's per MPH.
_________________
--- The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair.
- Douglas Adams -
---
'74 Thing (White)
'71 Single cab (White too)
'70 Weekender (White three)
'05 Evolution VIII (White also!!!)
'68 F-250 (White over black) |
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Towel Rail
Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 4622
Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| uberautowerks wrote: |
| And why would a stock motor with a late bug trans perform any different in a Thing or a bug. Given that both have stock tires. |
Acceleration suffers when the trans is geared too high. Top speed won't change, but you reach it quicker with short gears/tires.
| Quote: |
| If anything the Thing with 14" wheels should have a bit shorter gear with it's slightly smaller OD tire. Thus giving it a bit more RPM's per MPH. |
If we're talking stock tires:
165R15 = 25.4"
185R14 = 25.65"
No real difference there.
_________________
1974 Thing -- under the knife
1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car
049 > 070 > 053 > 009 |
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kevin11
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2004
Posts: 828
Location: Arlington,Texas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:35 am Post subject: |
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I've swapped out my stock thing tranny with a s/sideplate tranny from a 73 t-1.. no problems and works fine. Works great in the grass also,when need be.Stock 1600 .Ther are several threads on this subject..all interesting.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185622 |
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Captain Spalding
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| uberautowerks wrote: |
| If your paying for a freeway flyer that only has forth changed your getting ripped. A freeway flyer should be all the late model gears, 1st to 4th and the R&P, in an earlier housing. |
Interesting. I'd never heard that before. |
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uberautowerks
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2005
Posts: 1600
Location: Longmont Co
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Captain Spalding,
That's the way my trans builder does 'um. Others may vary.
_________________
--- The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair.
- Douglas Adams -
---
'74 Thing (White)
'71 Single cab (White too)
'70 Weekender (White three)
'05 Evolution VIII (White also!!!)
'68 F-250 (White over black) |
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7thing3
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2003
Posts: 473
Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I have a standard late model bug in mine powered by a 1915 motor. I like the combination. Gas mileage isn't too good but I suspect that is the result of the motor and driving 70 mph in a brick. |
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nerf965
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2006
Posts: 78
Location: Lisle, IL
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Does the engine have to be removed to replace the trans. the PO installed freeway flyer. My car has no speed till up to top speed. lucky the car came with the og trans too, that will be going in this weekend. |
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Ian Epperson
Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2005
Posts: 2262
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| nerf965 wrote: |
| Does the engine have to be removed to replace the trans? |
Yes.
Also the rear axles, which require a special tool to unbolt the CV joints.
Also the rear seat so you can get to the shift coupling. |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Spalding wrote: |
| uberautowerks wrote: |
| If your paying for a freeway flyer that only has forth changed your getting ripped. A freeway flyer should be all the late model gears, 1st to 4th and the R&P, in an earlier housing. |
Interesting. I'd never heard that before. |
You never heard that because it is not correct.
Facts:
An AV code "Thing" trans has:
3.78 1st (9 tooth splined mainshaft)
2.06 2nd
1.26 3rd
.93 4th
With a 4.12 R&P in a SSC case
A Late Beetle SSC trans with an AT code has:
3.78 1st (9 tooth splined mainshaft)
2.06 2nd
1.26 3rd
.93 4th
With a 3.88 R&P
Thus, the only difference in gearing is the R&P. ALL the forward gears are IDENTICAL.
The "housing" refered to is the main trans case. All 73-74 Things came with the superior single side cover trans case with the stronger side cover. Why would anyone want to downgrade their case to the earlier weaker case?
The best FF for a Thing that has a slightly bigger engine would be to only change 4th gear. And that should be a .89 002 Bus gear that fits just like stock. This leaves you with your same lower final drive in 1st gear for any off road use. If you stick in a Bug AT trans with it's 3.88 R&P, you will be raising the final drive ratio of all the gears. Not good for off road.
If you were on a really tight budget, you can get a trans with this gearing stock. Look for a double side cover Beetle trans with an AH code. Then swap your Thing flanges onto it. You will probably have to change the nose cone too.
uberautowerks wrote:
"And why would a stock motor with a late bug trans perform any different in a Thing or a bug. Given that both have stock tires. "
A Bug is a much better aerodynamic shape than a brick. A Thing needs lower gearing on the freeway because it is more difficult to push through the air.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Captain Spalding
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005
Posts: 2519
Location: . . . in denial.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| You never heard that because it is not correct . . . The best FF for a Thing that has a slightly bigger engine would be to only change 4th gear. And that should be a .89 002 Bus gear that fits just like stock. This leaves you with your same lower final drive in 1st gear for any off road use. |
When I said I'd never heard that before, it was my perhaps too gentle way of dissenting.  My tranny is set up as you described - and that's how I've always heard a FF described.
| Quote: |
| A Bug is a much better aerodynamic shape than a brick. A Thing needs lower gearing on the freeway because it is more difficult to push through the air. |
Not so much disagreeing as commenting here: Back in my Industrial Design school days I took a course in automotive aerodynamics. 80 percent or more of aerodynamic efficiency is a function of the vehicle's frontal area, whether it's a brick, a wedge or whatever. Changes in the shape of the car have less effect than one might think. I'm not saying that you're wrong in your comparison of a 181 and a Bug - there are lots of other factors that make a huge difference, like running with no side curtains, or the top down, or that there's more air under the Thing than a Bug. I'm only pointing out that other variables being equal, a rounded smooth car is not much more efficient than a brick.  |
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Towel Rail
Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 4622
Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Well, *something* slows the Thing down. A 1973 Thing has a top speed of 68 MPH, while a 1973 Super Beetle (with the same exact engine) has a top speed of 81 MPH! They weigh *exactly* the same, BTW...
_________________
1974 Thing -- under the knife
1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car
049 > 070 > 053 > 009 |
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Ian Epperson
Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2005
Posts: 2262
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Towel Rail wrote: |
| Well, *something* slows the Thing down. A 1973 Thing has a top speed of 68 MPH, while a 1973 Super Beetle (with the same exact engine) has a top speed of 81 MPH! They weigh *exactly* the same, BTW... |
| Bruce wrote: |
An AV code "Thing" trans has ... a 4.12 R&P
A Late Beetle SSC trans with an AT code has ... a 3.88 R&P
Thus, the only difference in gearing is the R&P.
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3.88 is 94% of 4.12
68mph is 84% of 81mph
That makes for a chunk of the difference. |
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mstatedog
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2003
Posts: 242
Location: East Coast of Mississippi
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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I'm running a 1776 with a late model type 1 tranny and love it. I can cruise at 70mph on the highway. Be sure to get a Gene Berg Temp. dipstick for about 10 clams...it will blink your oil light when temps get to high... and you can slow back until it goes off. It will allow your normal oil sensor to operate as usual.
dog |
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Towel Rail
Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 4622
Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Ian Epperson wrote: |
| Towel Rail wrote: |
| Well, *something* slows the Thing down. A 1973 Thing has a top speed of 68 MPH, while a 1973 Super Beetle (with the same exact engine) has a top speed of 81 MPH! They weigh *exactly* the same, BTW... |
| Bruce wrote: |
An AV code "Thing" trans has ... a 4.12 R&P
A Late Beetle SSC trans with an AT code has ... a 3.88 R&P
Thus, the only difference in gearing is the R&P.
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3.88 is 94% of 4.12
68mph is 84% of 81mph
That makes for a chunk of the difference. |
The Thing's top speed is reached well below peak RPM, though. According to Road & Track, the top speed (they got 73 MPH) was reached at 3850 RPM, while in the lower gears, the engine breathed all the way to 4700 RPM. The only way for gearing to limit the top speed would be to reach 4700 in the final gear, which it doesn't.
_________________
1974 Thing -- under the knife
1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car
049 > 070 > 053 > 009 |
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Al Capulco
Samba Member
Joined: October 31, 2005
Posts: 532
Location: Northridge, CA.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| According to the owners manual the unladen weight of a '73 Thing is 1984 lbs. A super beetle unladen weight is 2072 lbs., a standard beetle is 1973 lbs and the converible is 2127lbs. So a Thing weights less than a super beetle and more than a standard beetle, but not by much. |
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