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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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 Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| 250*F is the absolute max oil temp for any car using any brand of oil in any engine, not just aircooled engines. |
Maybe for street engines trying to get 3,000mile oil change intervals. But I've known water-cooled endurance racers stay above 300° F oil temps for extended periods. Also API certified oil has to be tested at 150° C.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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EverettB 
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Joined: April 11, 2000
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Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
My old '87 16V GTI hit 250F according to the onboard computer a few times in the AZ summer when I was on the freeway.
Nothing blew up, although I did concern me until I saw that too since I knew the air-cooled engine max is 250F. |
250*F is the absolute max oil temp for any car using any brand of oil in any engine, not just aircooled engines. |
This seems to be contrary to the VW manual scan glutamodo posted above.
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Bruce
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Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Did you ever try pouring a 5w40 or 5w50 oil out of a bottle, say at 0°F? |
It still pours thicker at that temp than a 50 at operating temp.
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Did you ever try pouring a 5w40 or 5w50 oil out of a bottle, say at 0°F? |
It still pours thicker at that temp than a 50 at operating temp. |
So what? That is just the nature of oil.
If you just want to pop off some statistics; a 0w20 will be much thicker at 0°F than a 60wt at 212°F.
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vugbug68
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Joined: June 25, 2006
Posts: 2696
Location: sacramento
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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If those articles are correct, diesel oils began changing in 2007 which is about the time I started using Rotella and Delvac in my vw engines. My 1956cc used nothing but Rotella and Delvac 15-40 and when I pulled it apart last year everything was in great shape, I used the cam and lifters in a different engine and when I degreed the cam it was spot on.
I'm not saying this was because I used diesel oil but I don't see the reason for not using it in these engines. I've searched for hours today for some article explaining the changes made. Couldn't find much aside from emissions BS, But I did find this
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28576/comparing-gasoline-diesel-engine-oils-
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modok
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Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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At the time I think that may have been the best choice of what was on the shelves at FLAPS. Certainly are worse choices.
Oil is getting better all the time.
Now there are even better choices!
Big engines, they want to run the oil until it NEEDS to be changed, because it costs a lot! and the longer they can go the better, and often do testing to find out when to change it. The oil companies know this, and probably try to cater to it. Classic car enthusiasts on the other hand seem to LIKe changing the oil so there is certainly some difference of application!
I remember going in there once 8 or 10 years ago and I read all the bottles, and there wasn't a darn thing in the store good to use for breaking in a new engine, so I bought a few quarts of motorcraft 10-30 and a quart of 75-90 gear oil. Best I could think of!! Nothing bad happened but I'm certainly glad things are improving. |
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drumbum68
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Joined: October 15, 2010
Posts: 566
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| Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| vugbug68 wrote: |
If those articles are correct, diesel oils began changing in 2007 which is about the time I started using Rotella and Delvac in my vw engines. My 1956cc used nothing but Rotella and Delvac 15-40 and when I pulled it apart last year everything was in great shape, I used the cam and lifters in a different engine and when I degreed the cam it was spot on.
I'm not saying this was because I used diesel oil but I don't see the reason for not using it in these engines. I've searched for hours today for some article explaining the changes made. Couldn't find much aside from emissions BS, But I did find this
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28576/comparing-gasoline-diesel-engine-oils- |
Changes made were in '07 new diesel pick-ups had to warranty their cats for 100,000 miles by fed mandate. Diesel oils from that point have reduced zddp so as to not poison cat. I run delo 15/40.....very good stuff |
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| drumbum68 wrote: |
| Changes made were in '07 new diesel pick-ups had to warranty their cats for 100,000 miles by fed mandate. Diesel oils from that point have reduced zddp so as to not poison cat. I run delo 15/40.....very good stuff |
So both new gasoline oils and new diesel oils have reduced ZDDP. Maybe that's why must oils have both gasoline and diesel ratings on them.
Thanks! Sounds like the case is solved!
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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This link seems to cover the subject pretty well.
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2014/05/diesel-engine-oil-filters/
| Quote: |
The amount of ZDDP allowed in gasoline motor oils was cut back to 800 ppm in 2005 to help extend the life of the catalytic converter, but was allowed to remain at 1200 ppm in diesel motor oils.
The actual level of ZDDP in off-the-shelf diesel oils may vary from as low as 1000 ppm to as high as 1600 ppm according to various lab tests that have been performed by independent sources. That’s because the anti-wear properties of the oil depend, not only on the amount of ZDDP in the oil, but also other additives in the oil and the quality of the base oil itself. |
| Quote: |
| For now, the two new oil standards are code named PC11A for the oil that will replace the current CJ-4 oils, and PC11B for the next generation 2016 and forward engines. There may even be a new viscosity rating to help differentiate the PC11B oil from current viscosities that are on the market. According to one oil company, oils that meet the new PC11B requirements will likely have a high temperature viscosity rating around 26 (slightly lower than a traditional 30 weight), resulting in blends such as 5W-26 or 10W-26. The PC11B oils may be a blend of conventional and synthetic oil or full synthetic. It’s also likely that the new PC11B oil may NOT be backwards compatible with current or older diesel engines (that will be up to the diesel engine manufacturers to decide on a case by case basis). It may be okay to use PC11B oils in some 2007 and newer engines, or it may not. This may present some challenges for truck fleets that operate a mix of newer and older engines. Most fleets prefer to use a single grade and viscosity motor oil in all of its engines, but that may not be possible depending on what engine changes appear in 2016. |
As of today I would say that the fear to run a Diesel oil in a gasoline engine is a lot of ado about nothing.
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15303
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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There is more ingredients in oil then just "ZDDP"
From the article linked above "One of the basic differences between oils formulated for diesel engines and those formulated for gasoline engines is more detergent and dispersant in the additive package."
Diesel oils also have less anti-foaming agents because Diesel engines are designed to run at much lower RPM's then gas engines.
Put that junk in your engine if you want but Diesel oils should no longer be used in gasoline engines. Read a few threads in the Performance engine section and guys are now reporting Diesel engine oils run 15*-20* hotter then gasoline engine oils. One member documented it with oil changes in 2 Bus's.
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vugbug68
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Joined: June 25, 2006
Posts: 2696
Location: sacramento
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I changed my oil last weekend from Rotella 15-40 to Mobil 10-40, my oil temps are a bit higher with the conventional 10-40, but nothing to worry about, pressure is pretty much the same when warmed up.
You can read about my engine swap here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=632001&highlight=
The 1760cc is in my car currently and running fantastic so I'm not gonna mess with it, but I did get that diesel oil out of it 
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EverettB
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Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69809
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| Diesel oils also have less anti-foaming agents because Diesel engines are designed to run at much lower RPM's then gas engines. |
What are the typical RPMs they run at?
When I did a quick Google search, it looked like Diesel passenger trucks run at around 3000, which isn't much lower than a VW engine cruising along.
Big rigs do run lower, I see people saying around 1200.
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26781
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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maybe 30% lower rpms, for similar size.
Larger engine always run slower than little ones, it is a simple "scale factor".
But compare the actual bearing surface speed and piston speeds and they are similar.
The VW tdi is a similar size, of course.
They do tend to have more generous amounts of crankcase space and larger oil capacity, as compared to say.........the oil churning mess that is a subaru! Or similar little car engines that try to pack a lot into a small space.
Although the "powers that be" limit the amount of this and that (quantity), they don't limit quality. |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| I have seen a lot of diesel engines that ran with their crankshafts fairly well immersed in oil so I call BS on the claim that diesels somehow don't need much in the way of antifoaming agents. Just think of a dozer or trackhoe working on a steep road cut or a snocat winching itself up an 80% grade. Even with divided sumps and dual pumps one end of the crank ends up sitting in the oil at times churning away. |
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vugbug68
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Joined: June 25, 2006
Posts: 2696
Location: sacramento
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
Put that junk in your engine if you want but Diesel oils should no longer be used in gasoline engines. Read a few threads in the Performance engine section and guys are now reporting Diesel engine oils run 15*-20* hotter then gasoline engine oils. One member documented it with oil changes in 2 Bus's. |
Here is the post with that info, scroll down and read Mightymouse's post
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=597355&highlight=oil+temp
I believe the topic starter was using Rotella
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:30 am Post subject: |
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What a meaningless post to link to, Rotella comes in weights between 5w40 and straight 50wt, which one of the dozen or so different Rotella oils did he try? Funny I have trouble getting my SN rated "Diesel" oils to run over 200°F including when I have run straight 30wt. |
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modok
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Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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EPWI will soon be distributing Maxima Racing oils, so you may see them soon for sale at machine shops and speed shops in the western half of the US.
Maxima has been mainly marketing to motorcycle and powersports, but I guess they want to get into cars too.
They have a break-in oil for new engines and conventional and synthetic oils which have plenty of EP additives for racing and classic cars. |
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vwsb74
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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I mix vr1 racing 10/30 conventionaL and vr1 racing 10/30 synthec In my new engine now it runs cool at 200-215f . Before I only run the conventional oil it topped at 235f
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udidwht
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Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| vwsb74 wrote: |
| I mix vr1 racing 10/30 conventionaL and vr1 racing 10/30 synthec In my new engine now it runs cool at 200-215f . Before I only run the conventional oil it topped at 235f |
Go back several pages and the conventional VR1 had better wear numbers than the synthetic version.
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mrcool
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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I have a 1983 air cooled that has probably been sitting for 2 years at least.
Climate is bay area California.
I am planning on a engine oil change with:
Chevron Delo 400LE Heavy Duty Motor Oil, SAE 15W-40
Gear oil change with:
Sta-Lube SL24239 API/GL-4 Multi-Purpose Hypoid Gear Oil
85w90
After reading 15+ pages of this I'm afraid to ask for substitute suggestions but I'd be interested.
Very interested in any additives I should put in for an engine that has been sitting. To clean up any carbon build up ect. |
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