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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| modok wrote: |
I don't know either.
but it says:
"Many studies have investigated the interaction of Ca
based detergents and dispersants (phenates, sulfonates,
salicylates) with ZDDPs.
9–17
The consensus is that the
efficacy of ZDDPs is retarded through a competition of
detergents and dispersants either absorbing on the
surface or limiting the interaction between ZDDPs
and the metal,
3,18,19
both routes resulting in antagonistic
behaviour with respect to antiwear performance.
Overbased detergents have also been shown to diminish
the antioxidant properties of ZDDPs, while the more
basic detergent seems to improve the frictional proper-ties of the oil.
13"
you could lookup sources 9-19 for further reading. |
I agree that that is what it says, but their actually testing doesn't seem to provide anything in the way of valuable info. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes. But I shall thank him for giving me an additional 19 sources that support what I told you. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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vr1, for example, does have detergent, just a lower level, about 1% instead of 2-2.5%
That's why I call it a "low detergent oil."
The top study you cited has a graph which shows friction going UP with 2% and 5% detergent added, might indicate the ideal amount could be around 1% |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| modok wrote: |
you could lookup sources 9-19 for further reading. |
A quote from one of your further reading sources
"that films prepared from oils containing both ZDDP and detergent, and ZDDP and molybdenum dithiocarbamate (MoDTC), are chemically similar to, but thicker than those made from oils containing only ZDDP. In addition, wear was greatly reduced in the presence of the detergent which was correlated with the basicity and the presence of the friction modifier"
Without having read the study, it might be possible that you are given up wear resistance if you don't run sufficient detergent to help out the ZDDP.
In another one of your "further reading" sources they indicate when they ran total detergent and dispersant levels above 1% wear levels for certain variations of ZDDP were significantly reduced. (They strangely didn't give the exact percentage of detergents in the oils they tested).
One thing I have definitely noted when reading on this subject is that when an article mostly uses the term Zinc over ZDDP (or phosphorus and its various compounds) the article tends to have a lot of misinformation and just plain BS in it.
This goes for Joe Gibbs as well. What is their "fast burn ZDDP"? For all I know is it the same type of ZDDP that needs detergent additives in excess of 1% to function well and can perhaps be found in many motor oils with a moderate amount of ZDDP. Information on what this secret but likely common additive is is missing from their infomercials. |
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Singerdude
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2015
Posts: 464
Location: Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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Here is the abstract of a study in Lubrication Science vol. 2 issue 1 that looks promising:
"Combinations of additives are often found to exhibit antagonistic or synergistic effects compared to the performance of the individual additives. This paper reviews the state of knowledge concerning such effects. Direct interactions, where two additives combine at a molecular level, are distinguished from complementary or exclusary effects where the individual contributions of separate additives enhance or reduce overall performance but with no direct interaction. Additive interactions take place in solution and at surfaces, and both are discussed."
The full text is available for purchase here:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ls.3010020102/pdf
Don't we have a fellow Samba member in academia that could have access to most of the online libraries and help us get all the facts instead of just speculating based on fragmented info.
Damn I wish this kind of litterature was available for free, seing as most of the academia research done throughout the world is largely subsidised by tax payer money in the first place, it should be available to said tax payers for free. Man! "Big Publishing" has it both ways as researchers pay hefty sums to publishers to get their papers published and then the people pay to read.
Now I'll climb down from my soapbox before causing saponification...  |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" t |
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Hi all 196 pages of this oil related post. I would like to ask is anyone using the Castrol GTX 20w-50 oil in a bone stock type1 bay window bus? This brand has a very strong following with the air-cooled crowd. Is your decision based on product loyalty or something else?
Thanks in advance, Bill. |
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69830
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" t |
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I have not used it in a Bay Window but I have used it in a Split Bus in the past for the summer in Phoenix, often on older unknown mileage engines.
I prefer 15W/40 now for Phoenix temps.
I would try 10/30 but my current daily driver engine leaks a little and 10/30 makes it leak more.
I think 10W/30 or 15W/40 is more suitable for LA.
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Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2106
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Singerdude wrote: |
Here is the abstract of a study in Lubrication Science vol. 2 issue 1 that looks promising:
"Combinations of additives are often found to exhibit antagonistic or synergistic effects compared to the performance of the individual additives. This paper reviews the state of knowledge concerning such effects. Direct interactions, where two additives combine at a molecular level, are distinguished from complementary or exclusary effects where the individual contributions of separate additives enhance or reduce overall performance but with no direct interaction. Additive interactions take place in solution and at surfaces, and both are discussed."
The full text is available for purchase here:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ls.3010020102/pdf
Don't we have a fellow Samba member in academia that could have access to most of the online libraries and help us get all the facts instead of just speculating based on fragmented info.
Damn I wish this kind of litterature was available for free, seing as most of the academia research done throughout the world is largely subsidised by tax payer money in the first place, it should be available to said tax payers for free. Man! "Big Publishing" has it both ways as researchers pay hefty sums to publishers to get their papers published and then the people pay to read.
Now I'll climb down from my soapbox before causing saponification... |
that article is from 1989, so I wonder how applicable it is to today
I had a look at recent articles in that journal and it looks like diamond coating camshafts and tappets is the latest rage  |
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Singerdude
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2015
Posts: 464
Location: Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:44 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" t |
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Ooopss sorry I didn't really check the date.
And dlc coated cams, yeah, that should keep em in the 100$ range...  |
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Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2106
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:21 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" t |
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I did find an article about other zinc compounds without phosphorous that can be used instead of ZDDP and acording to the testing have even better properties, of course now the matter would be to know which modern oils are using those  |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" t |
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| Slow 1200 wrote: |
| I did find an article about other zinc compounds without phosphorous that can be used instead of ZDDP and acording to the testing have even better properties, of course now the matter would be to know which modern oils are using those |
It's not the zinc nor the phosphorus that protects our engines. It's the sulfur. When zinc dialkyldithiophasphate (ZDDP) gets to a certain high temperature, like when metal strikes metal, it liberates more sulfur than zinc or phosphate (meaning of "dithio" two sulfur atoms for every zinc and phosphate atom.) The sulfur in turn causes a thin layer of iron sulfide on the surface. Under a microscope you'll see a lot of iron sulfide but hardly any zinc or phosphate on the engine surfaces. The iron sulfide is sacrificial and simply wipes off.
Since with the right amount of zinc dialkyldithiophasphate the surface layer of iron sulfide doesn't grow very deep. Which in turn causes the sacrificial wear to be insignificant even over a long period of time. But if you have excessive amounts of it the sacrificial wear will be much greater, which is why you can have too much ZDDP.
There are other chemicals that liberate sulfur and cause iron sulfide. Molybdenum sulfide (MoS2), for an example, does. The problem with molybdenum sulfide is that it liberates it's sulfur at a much lower temperature. This is why oils with molybdenum sulfide, like Motul V300, need to be changed every 300 miles or so. MoS2 is a great anti-scuff additive but the sacrificial wear from it is much more significant.
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Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2106
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:02 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" t |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
| Slow 1200 wrote: |
| I did find an article about other zinc compounds without phosphorous that can be used instead of ZDDP and acording to the testing have even better properties, of course now the matter would be to know which modern oils are using those |
It's not the zinc nor the phosphorus that protects our engines. It's the sulfur. When zinc dialkyldithiophasphate (ZDDP) gets to a certain high temperature, like when metal strikes metal, it liberates more sulfur than zinc or phosphate (meaning of "dithio" two sulfur atoms for every zinc and phosphate atom.) The sulfur in turn causes a thin layer of iron sulfide on the surface. Under a microscope you'll see a lot of iron sulfide but hardly any zinc or phosphate on the engine surfaces. The iron sulfide is sacrificial and simply wipes off.
Since with the right amount of zinc dialkyldithiophasphate the surface layer of iron sulfide doesn't grow very deep. Which in turn causes the sacrificial wear to be insignificant even over a long period of time. But if you have excessive amounts of it the sacrificial wear will be much greater, which is why you can have too much ZDDP.
There are other chemicals that liberate sulfur and cause iron sulfide. Molybdenum sulfide (MoS2), for an example, does. The problem with molybdenum sulfide is that it liberates it's sulfur at a much lower temperature. This is why oils with molybdenum sulfide, like Motul V300, need to be changed every 300 miles or so. MoS2 is a great anti-scuff additive but the sacrificial wear from it is much more significant. |
yeah the point was that those new compounds do exactly that too (or something that allows for comparable or superior lubrication on metal to metal contact) |
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subhuman
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2008
Posts: 539
Location: north carolina
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| Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" t |
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anyone try the castrol edge 5w 50? seems to have proper levels of zddp.
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WhirledTraveller
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 1399
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" t |
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| subhuman wrote: |
| anyone try the castrol edge 5w 50? seems to have proper levels of zddp. |
I've been using it for a year, including an 8000 mile road trip, and been happy with it overall. Seems to keep the pressure up at elevated temperature better than Dino oil and as you say it appears to have the proper ZDDP. Previously I was changing the oil twice a year for winter and summer weights, but with the low miles I typically drive that was getting ridiculous. 5w50 seems to cover me year round up here in beantown.
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XMXER
Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Jasper GA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" t |
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| I use Lucas Break In Oil in new engines Or Castrol With Lucas Oil Additive. Lucas Oil Products Are Top Shelf. |
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wardvwracer
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2002
Posts: 489
Location: De Pere, WI
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I am going to try and give this VR1 a good run and I will report back what I find. |
I just picked up some VR1 10W30 for a 200+hp set up. I've typically run straight 30W and 40W Valvoline Racing oil, but thought I should consider a 10 winter 30 rather than straight 30 this time around. According to the label this variation of VR1 claims to be good with flat tappet cams. Still unsure...
Have you run your VR1 yet? Any feedback/results yet?
The oil that I ran in this engine immediately before this build was 30wt "heavy duty", a local brand, with a Lucas break-in additive with lots of zinc. Upon tear down I found the skirts of my pistons orange colored. The coloring cleaned easily with carb cleaner, but was concerning. Hence one of the reasons I'm looking at different oil this time.
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" t |
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I have been using Valvoline VR-1 10W-30 in my street cars and 30W in my race car for many years and have had no problems.
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johnanddes
Satellite Wrangler
Joined: October 17, 2004
Posts: 692
Location: Orcutt CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" t |
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| subhuman wrote: |
| anyone try the castrol edge 5w 50? seems to have proper levels of zddp. |
I just started using it on a recommendation from a very well respected guy here on thesamba. I must say I like it so far. My engine is a lot quieter (and sounds a lot less irritated like it did when I used 15w-40) so far, so good. I'm probably going to go back and buy out the remaining stock here locally.
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cbrkat28
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2015
Posts: 6
Location: Dallas
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Since this thread was started almost a decade ago and things have changed in the auto world, I was wondering how many people run Rotella T6 5W-40 and which oil filter best matches the flow rate of the oil pump?...assume it's a 26mm
Thanks in advance! |
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