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rrcade
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what oil should I use?? Laughing

The previous owner of my 2276 ran Harley davidson 20W50 NON synthetic, I have to check online to see what kind of zinc numbers,etc. it has. But I'm wondering if anyone else has used this Motorcycle oil or has an opinion on using it in a vw. If I hear some comments telling me a good reason not to use it then I'm considering using Brad Penn(formulated opinion after reading all 125 pages of this thread....yeah right Laughing )

Right now my oil pressure is about 20 at idle and doesn't seem to go over 45 at cruise with the HD 20/50, the engine is full flow with Wix Filter and CB performance Dry Sump- Oil temps are around 220 or a little higher on Hot days.
So which Brad Penn oil should I try? I'm afraid to go 10W30 as I don't know what kind of clearances were used in the engine build, but I do know that it has been running 20W50 Harley oil for Years.
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DarthWeber
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rrcade wrote:
So what oil should I use?? Laughing

It's been a few days with no reply so I'll take a shot at this. There are motorcycle oils and automotive oils. There are these two types of oil formulations for a reason. There are other types of oils but for the purpose of this answer I'll just concern myself with the two types of engines mentioned.

Just because the two engines are air cooled doesn't mean their specific oils are interchangeable. If this were applicable then oil manufacturers would only need to make one oil for air cooled engines regardless of application.

I personally would have done some research before I poured anything in my 2276 regardless of what the previous owner used or recommended. Rather than wait for someone to comment on a reason not to use HD oil, why don't you choose an oil specifically made for flat tappet engines like our VW's as well as an oil run by many, many people who have stock as well as high performance VW engines.....people who frequent this very forum! Very Happy

Brad Penn. There are several other quality brand oils which fulfill the requirements of our VW engines and will give good protection too. You have to do a little research to find out which ones, it's not difficult or time consuming, a scan of the last 10 or 20 pages of this thread would be sufficient. Another source of good info and accurate numbers is here:
http://www.pqiamerica.com/ and here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

Here's a post I made back on page 121 which sort of sums up some things about VW's and oil:
DarthWeber wrote:

I think a condensed version of this whole thread would be as follows:

1) Run an oil weight that gives, as close as possible, 10 psi per 1,000 rpm.

2) If you are using xxW-40 or xxW-50 oil and experiencing high oil temps try switching to a lower weight oil, xxW-30. Providing it doesn't conflict with rule 1 this should lower oil temps to the proper range.
(This is assuming your engine is in good shape - not worn out by extreme mileage - and has a good state of tune, all cooling tins and seals are in place and stock gearing in the transmission)

3) a)
Synthetic oils, Redline or Amsoil for example, seem to be the best choice for engine protection but cost more.
b)Brad Penn, Swepco, Joe Gibbs type oils are a bit more reasonable in cost and have the proper amounts of zinc and phosphorus for VW air cooled engines. ZDDP levels should be between 1200 - 1500 ppm, more is not better.
c)You can run less costly SN rated off the shelf oils like Pennzoil, Quaker State, Castrol, etc. however the SN oils as of this date are around 800 ppm ZDDP. You can dose this oil with a ZDDP additive such as Redline or Lucas break in additive but BEWARE......these additives are VERY high in ZDDP. More is not better. Example, a typical 4 - 5 quart oil change takes only approximately 5 or 6 ounces of additive to bring an SN oil up to 1200 ppm minimum levels.
(This last section (c) is presented so people will be aware of what is possible. I have tried this and know it works but it's not for everyone. If you choose this way do your research, know what is in your additive and motor oil before you blend. For most I recommend Brad Penn or, if money isn't a concern, a quality synthetic oil. For those that have run 20W-50 or off the shelf SN motor oils for years without problems, that's fine if it works for you, it's just not what I personally would recommend to someone who just bought their first VW and is looking for advice on oil.)

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Mitey62 wrote:
Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on.

RockCrusher wrote:
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. Laughing
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GeorgeL
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's look at the relief/control valve thing from a different angle. When the oil is cold and thick most of it bypasses the cooler. As it warms it thins until enough of it flows through the cooler to remove the heat that is added by the engine. When the heat removed equals the heat added the system is in equilibrium and will remain that way.

Now, if the oil starts out at higher viscosity it must be raised to higher temperatures to thin it to the point where it will flow enough to remove the same amount of heat. Therefore the engine runs hotter with higher viscosity oil.

This is not quite a linear function because the hotter oil will transfer a little more heat to the air which reduces the oil flow required by a bit, but this is a secondary effect.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeorgeL wrote:
Let's look at the relief/control valve thing from a different angle. When the oil is cold and thick most of it bypasses the cooler. As it warms it thins until enough of it flows through the cooler to remove the heat that is added by the engine. When the heat removed equals the heat added the system is in equilibrium and will remain that way.

Now, if the oil starts out at higher viscosity it must be raised to higher temperatures to thin it to the point where it will flow enough to remove the same amount of heat. Therefore the engine runs hotter with higher viscosity oil.

This is not quite a linear function because the hotter oil will transfer a little more heat to the air which reduces the oil flow required by a bit, but this is a secondary effect.


Don't forget that oil pressure and thus oil cooling is a function of the oil pump volume and the engine rpm. As the engine rpms increases more oil will bypass the cooler. At 115F ambient all the oil may be going through the cooler at idle even if you are running 20w50, while at 5000rpm on a cooler day 5w-20 may be 100% bypassing the cooler.
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rrcade
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Not knowing how many miles are on my engine or what shape the bearings,etc. are in, do you think it is safe for me to run BP 10w30?
OR should I stick with the 20w50 that the previous owner was running for years in this engine and just switch from the Harley oil to BP?
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rrcade wrote:
... oil pressure is about 20 at idle and doesn't seem to go over 45 at cruise with the HD 20/50, ......Oil temps are around 220 or a little higher on Hot days.

All of those numbers are telling you that 20W-50 is too thick.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
All of those numbers are telling you that 20W-50 is too thick.

X2. Try 10W-30 Bradley Penn. You might be pleasantly surprised. And you'll know, without a doubt, you'll have the ZDDP protection you'll need. Gee whiz, you'll probably be able to get a full night's sleep now! Laughing
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Mitey62 wrote:
Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on.

RockCrusher wrote:
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. Laughing
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The time had come for an oil change in my Bay with an 1800 T4 dual relief engine, so I decided to do a little oil temperature testing. I had originally planned on doing this on a much hotter day, but have promised my daughter she can have the Bay as her ride for a while starting this coming weekend, so the testing had to occur at the available temps.

For a test track I used the neighborhood streets and highway. To warm the engine up I would do 10 miles of back roads and then took it out and ran the 6% 3 mile long grade on the main highway near by. I ran the course with 5w30 Mobile 1 High Mileage oil which was in the crankcase and had 5500 miles on it, some fresh Super Tech 20w50, and the Mobile 1 5w-40 Turbo Diesel oil which I was changing back over to. I initially intended to write down just the temperature at the Taco Plate which I shot with a infrared heat gun, but also shot other points on the bottom of the engine and found the temperatures to vary considerably from one point to another, so I decided to also recorded the temperature at the oil screen cover.

The temperatures for the taco plate were very close to being the same for the 5w30 and 5w40 and were about 10F higher for the 20w50. What was surprising to me though was the temperatures at the oil screen cover. With the 5w30 the temps at the cover where consistently 20 lower than at the taco plate, while for the 20w50 the temps were 30 lower at the cover. This makes the temps at the oil screen cover essentially the same for both the 5w30 and 20w50. When I ran the course with the 5w40 I just expected to see pretty much the same thing, but the temps at the oil screen cover ran at times over 50F lower than the temps at the taco plate, when the taco plate was 197F the screen cover was only 145F. I really don't know how to account for this.

I ran the first two miles of the grade with the pedal dead to the floor in fourth and then the last mile at 50 mph in third. This is pretty much my normal procedure for pulling this grade, just a little faster in third than I typically go.

The ambient ran 61F +/-3

The first number in each column below is the temperature at the taco plate and the second number the temperature at the oil screen cover.


Oil weight------Temp at-------Temp at ------Temp at
------------------bottom -------top of --------end of
-----------------of grade-------grade---------course

5w30-----------176/154-------195/175-------182/163
20w50----------184/156-------205/178-------190/163
5w40-----------169/142-------197/145-------183/154
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
GeorgeL wrote:
Let's look at the relief/control valve thing from a different angle. When the oil is cold and thick most of it bypasses the cooler. As it warms it thins until enough of it flows through the cooler to remove the heat that is added by the engine. When the heat removed equals the heat added the system is in equilibrium and will remain that way.

Now, if the oil starts out at higher viscosity it must be raised to higher temperatures to thin it to the point where it will flow enough to remove the same amount of heat. Therefore the engine runs hotter with higher viscosity oil.

This is not quite a linear function because the hotter oil will transfer a little more heat to the air which reduces the oil flow required by a bit, but this is a secondary effect.


Don't forget that oil pressure and thus oil cooling is a function of the oil pump volume and the engine rpm. As the engine rpms increases more oil will bypass the cooler. At 115F ambient all the oil may be going through the cooler at idle even if you are running 20w50, while at 5000rpm on a cooler day 5w-20 may be 100% bypassing the cooler.


That would greatly depend on how cold the temps are...before 5w-20 would by-pass the cooler completely.


The control valve only moderates the upper limit of pump output AFTER the bearings have had their fill. This allowed VW to design-in some excess capacity so these engines could have an extended lifespan before the idle idiot light flicker spells old age. The entire youth of the engine has that control valve dumping oil back into the sump. As the bearings wear, it finally only trims the high rpm stuff and eventually does not get triggered at all.


Meanwhile, every morning, no matter the age of the engine, the relief valve is doing its oil cooler bypassing job because of thick cold oil.
See, it doesn't know about any old worn bearings. Being entirely upstream of the bearings, it's relief dump into the sump is strictly pump output against the resistance of the cooler and the relief spring before the galleries.
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Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
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Last edited by udidwht on Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:45 am; edited 3 times in total
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
rrcade wrote:
... oil pressure is about 20 at idle and doesn't seem to go over 45 at cruise with the HD 20/50, ......Oil temps are around 220 or a little higher on Hot days.

All of those numbers are telling you that 20W-50 is too thick.


220 is not overly high at cruising speed. I'd be more worried if it were 250 or higher at cruising spped.
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1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm Webers (50 idles/125 mains/180 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module
NGK B5ES - .028 gap
Pertronix Flamethrower coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

udidwht wrote:
This allowed VW to design-in some excess capacity so these engines could have an extended lifespan before the idle idiot light flicker spells old age. The entire youth of the engine has that control valve dumping oil back into the sump. As the bearings wear, it finally only trims the high rpm stuff and eventually does not get triggered at all.


Meanwhile, every morning, no matter the age of the engine, the relief valve is doing its oil cooler bypassing job because of thick cold oil.
See, it doesn't know about any old worn bearings. Being entirely upstream of the bearings, it's relief dump into the sump is strictly pump output against the resistance of the cooler and the relief spring before the galleries.


Who dreamed this convoluted explanation of how the VW oiling system was designed? It is very common for engines to dump oil at normal cruising conditions, this is not just a VW thing. Journal bearings only need sufficient oil volume, the pressure in the galleys just needs to be enough to get the necessary volume to the bearings. The relief (control valve) is added to protect the cooler, galley plugs and stuff, block it off and you are going to be blowing stuff apart on cold start up even on a worn engine. The viscosity of oil on cold start up, even for a 0w50 oil is much greater when cold than when hot, the control valve is there to account for this.

I don't buy at all the explanation that the relief valve doesn't sense the oil usage of the bearings down stream of it. The distance from the control valve to the main bearings is measured in inches, not feet or yards so there is little pressure drop between the relief valve and the bearings. Especially when the relief valve is fully open it is sensing the oil pressure in the main galley. Note that the oil pressure sender which is mounted right next to the inaptly named relief valve can certainly sense the oil usage of the bearings just fine.

I have to wonder, in the original German, are the names of the relief and control valves so confusing? Or is the relief/control valve mixup the result of a bad translation?
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That explanation as earlier mentioned which couldn't have been said better myself was convulsed by Colin.
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Pertronix Flamethrower coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

udidwht wrote:
That explanation as earlier mentioned which couldn't have been said better myself was convulsed by Colin.


I would say that "convulsed" is the proper explanation for it. VW engineers aren't gods, they designed an oiling system that was cheap to produce and met the meager requirements of early 20th century motoring. From what I have read the oil cooler was not part of the original VW boxer engine design, but was added after early engines began to experience undue failures. The design is pretty much a bandaid that was cheap enough and worked well enough it never got substantially changed, even through the Vanagon waterboxer run.

It would be hard to call it well engineered as it has certainly shown it share of flaws over the years. Pre-doghouse T1 were well known for having cooling problems due to the add on design of the cooler, while T4 engines were notorious for blowing oil galley plugs and having the oil cooler blocked off by debris. Even during the Vanagon era seeing massive oil leaks from the oil cooler o-ring letting go is/was common.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
It would be hard to call it well engineered as it has certainly shown it share of flaws over the years. Pre-doghouse T1 were well known for having cooling problems due to the add on design of the cooler
Not that there's anything wrong with retarding the #3 distributor lobe, lol.
Now if we could get rid of the oil piling up on the left side during high RPM...
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Altema
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ohh the disappointment! I went to pickup 6 quarts of Redline, then find out the price was for regular Redline oil, not the racing oil which was almost $13 USD a quart!
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rrcade
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The August issue of some UK volks magazine is going to be discussing oil selection for performance motors, can't wait to see what their findings are. In the mean time I'll probably try the 10w30 BP, it can't hurt anything right....or can it...we shall see.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing to keep in mind about the VW oiling system, when the engineers designed it and even when it was "improved" in the early 70's, it was made for use with straight weight oil not the multi-vis we commonly use now.

Altema, when you say "regular" Redline oil do you mean their high performance oil? That's what you want for a street motor. Their race oil is not recommended for street use (unless you change it very often) as it has few detergents in it.

rrcade, use the Brad Penn 10W-30. How is it going to hurt your motor? I don't understand. Think
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Mitey62 wrote:
Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on.

RockCrusher wrote:
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthWeber wrote:
Altema, when you say "regular" Redline oil do you mean their high performance oil? That's what you want for a street motor. Their race oil is not recommended for street use (unless you change it very often) as it has few detergents in it.


Yes, I was referring to the High Performance Motor Oil as their "regular" oil. My concern is that their regular oil would not have the proper zinc levels. EPA regulations limit zinc and phosphorus unless the oil is labeld for racing or off-road use only, correct?

Paul
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rrcade wrote:
In the mean time I'll probably try the 10w30 BP, it can't hurt anything right....or can it...we shall see.

I'm with Darth, I don't see how that oil is going to hurt unless the your crank is just rattling around in the bearings. But since your pressures are a bit high, I don't think that will be a problem Wink
Until 1971, VW specified W30 as the heaviest recommended oil. Where I come from, guys used to go with the thicker than recommended stuff when the oil pressure was too low due to wear.

Paul
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Altema, Redline High Performance Motor Oil IS exactly what you want to run! It's loaded with zinc and phosphorus and is IMHO THE BEST oil you can buy for your VW. Very Happy

Their racing oil is what you DO NOT want to use as it has little or no detergents in it and will allow build up in your engine, not to mention it costs more.

Redline is an ester based oil and has a naturally higher viscosity index which gives it a thicker oil film in bearings and for cam/lifters. Check out the virgin oil analysis:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.ph...w=1#UNREAD
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Mitey62 wrote:
Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on.

RockCrusher wrote:
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. Laughing
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