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Dan Ruddock
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oil does a good job cooling the case, pistons and cylinders. Some of the head heat is transferred threw the head studs and the head to cylinder interface so yes the oil will lower the temp of the whole engine but the heads are effected the least.

I had my oil thermostat fail closed on my 356 and the valves got noisy because the head got hotter. I got out of the car and felt the oil cooler in my horn grill and it was cold then I knew what the problem was.

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Juanito84
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I've been reading Confused ... Anyhow, it looks like a group 4 or 5 synthetic would be my choice. With the places I drive I thought it would be best to use a 0W-30 (or perhaps 0W-20) for winter (always below freezing down to -30º F or colder for extended periods). 5W-30 for spring and fall (gets below freezing every morning). 10W-30 for summer (highs in the 80º's, lows in the 40º's). And 15W-40 for those trips to the tropics (at times 100ºF day and night).

Stock 1600 dual port, etc. I'm trying to find a way to adapt a thermostat to the stock oil cooler. Who knows if that's possible. I've got head and oil temp gauges ordered too. I might do the chrome valve covers in the winter.

The problem is that I havent found a group 4 or 5 synthetic, like Red Line, Royal Purple or Amsoil that has all these grades. I'm also concerned with ZDDP. Maybe I should just use 5W-30 all year? Or 0W-30 6 months and 10W-30 6 months?
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Frodge
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want an argument. I'm changing my oil today. 10w40 or 10w30. I live in NYC.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

10w30. either choose an oil that has high zddp or add some.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you know the content of zddp? Wha is a good amount of it?
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glutamodo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read back through this thread to find oils that have decent levels of zddp. You won't find many on the shelf at FLAPS though - and the ones you do find you might get some sticker shock (that Castrol Edge 5W-50 that has been mentioned here and there in this thread with the zddp, I saw that at Autozone yesterday for like 9.20 a quart)

I bought some zddp additive online a few years ago, and have been using that, myself.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frodge wrote:
How do you know the content of zddp? Wha is a good amount of it?


With quality lifters and cam with stock springs and rockers 800ppm of ZDDP is sufficient. But with cheap lifters, cam and/or high reving springs you need more, perhaps as much as 1200ppm at the most.

Since ZDDP hurts catalytic converters most modern API or GL certified oils (aka: off the shelf oils) have 800ppm or less. There are high ZDDP oils for vintage engines such as Amsoil Z-Rod. All your racing oils are high in ZDDP. Most parts stores should also sell ZDDP additive.

Note that ZDDP chemically atacks iron turning it into iron sulfide. And all you need is enough to keep a thin coat of iron sulfide on the cam and lifter faces to keep them from welding together and pulling chunks out of each other. But each time the cam turns over the iron sulfide wipes off and a new coat if formed. So having too much isn't necessary and might actually lead to faster engine wear.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frodge wrote:
How do you know the content of zddp? Wha is a good amount of it?


You can easily find oils in a 10w30 weight that say they are for "high mileage engines", these oils should have sufficient ZDDP. Also most any oil with a second number of 40 or higher will not have reduced ZDDP (note that xxw40 oils which say they are energy conserving will have lowered ZDDP).

You can also search online or contact the manufacture of any oil you wish to use.
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glutamodo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Frodge wrote:
How do you know the content of zddp? Wha is a good amount of it?


You can easily find oils in a 10w30 weight that say they are for "high mileage engines", these oils should have sufficient ZDDP. .


I knew about the Castrol Edge 5W-50 having it. I'm pretty sure their normal high mileage does have much zinc in it though. I'd seen one of the Mobil 1 varieties having higher zinc levels in the past. I was looking when in the store earlier today for any others, the only one I spotted was Quaker State Defy, which was also labelled ONLY "SL" - not "SN, SM, SL, SJ" like you may see others do...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

glutamodo wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
Frodge wrote:
How do you know the content of zddp? Wha is a good amount of it?


You can easily find oils in a 10w30 weight that say they are for "high mileage engines", these oils should have sufficient ZDDP. .


I knew about the Castrol Edge 5W-50 having it. I'm pretty sure their normal high mileage does have much zinc in it though. I'd seen one of the Mobil 1 varieties having higher zinc levels in the past. I was looking when in the store earlier today for any others, the only one I spotted was Quaker State Defy, which was also labelled ONLY "SL" - not "SN, SM, SL, SJ" like you may see others do...


The SM/SN standards do not specify lower zinc for oils with a second number of 40 or higher. Any of the "high mileage" 5w30 and 10w30 oils will probably say "SL" on them, while a high mileage 5w40 or 10w40 will say SM or SN. Straight weight oils like 30wt or 40wt are also not restricted in the amount of zinc they can have. Just avoid "energy/resource conserving" oils if you are worried about the amount of ZDDP in an xxW40 oil.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to know, actually, just how much ZDDP is in the Castrol High Mileage. I've never used it before but I just got caught, away from "home" where all my oil is, and realized I forgot an oil change and was approaching 4K since my last change. I regularly go 8-10K (all 65MPH highway miles) on my Golf but I really don't like to go over 3K on my Bugs. I don't know why I stick to Castrol, I've used it since the late 80s, but I know it's not the same company as when I first started using it (it's BP now) - but the only other oils I've used over the years are Brad Penn, and then I picked up about a case of oldie-but-goodie late 80s vintage Amoco (pre-BP) Ultimate synthetic and I've been blending that with newer Castrol oil. So that's why I went into Autozone thinking to pick up some 5W-50 Edge and finding it priced at like 9.18/quart and not being able to bring myself to pay it. So I got some of that Castrol High-Mileage, which was on sale at K-Mart (I went there because in the past that particular store had previously sold the Edge 5W-50 stuff at a much nicer price than Autozone, but no sign of it now) thinking I'd just add a few drops of my ZDDP additive when I got home. But I really don't want to add too much... thus my interest in knowing how much it has. The only oil that BP... err... Castrol promotes as having "extra" zinc in it is that all-synthetic Edge (nee' Syntec... I'm still totally perplexed as to why they thought "Edge" was a better brand name than "Syntec" for synthetic oil)

Okay I rambled on there, sorry about that.

-Andy
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Juanito84
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frodge wrote:
I don't want an argument. I'm changing my oil today. 10w40 or 10w30. I live in NYC.


As far as the original question, and NOT just stating my personal opinion, VW's last recommendation in the US was
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Of course these are average ambient temperatures. So if you have an average ambient temperature of 30º to 50ºF then you could use 10W-30, 10W-40, 15W-40, 15W-50, 20W-40, 20W-50, 20W-20 or straight 30. That's a lot of choices!

The last VW recommendation for a Beetle (in Mexico) was 15W-40 for all temperatures. (Mexico is a hot country with 100ºF average days in some parts and other parts that are much cooler, sometimes freezing.)

Haynes most recent recommendation is 5W-30 for all temperatures and 10W-30 for anything above 0ºF.

Ok, now for my opinion. Oil grades have improved. So a 10W-40 should cover the whole single grade range from SAE 10W (starting just below 0ºF) to SAE 40 (at over 100ºF).

But even then, I recommend choosing the "W" number based on your coldest temperature, using the highest possible. So use 25W-X for temperatures not any colder than 32ºF, 20W-X for no colder than 10º, 15W-X for no colder than -4º, 10W-X for no colder than -13º, 5W-X for no colder than -22º, and 0W-X for anything colder than that.

I recommend on choosing the hot grade (the number without the "W") based upon hot oil temps. If you never get to running temperatures, use xW-20. If you sit around 180º-200ºF then use xW-30. If you normally have 200º-220ºF oil temps, then use xW-40. And save the xW-50 for if your oil likes to stay above 220ºF.

Like I said, use the highest W number possible, keeping the two numbers as close as possible. If you don't have sub freezing weather in the summer, then 20W-40 or 15W-40 would be better than 10W-40 or 5W-40. If you do have to use a 10W or a 5W then opt for a -30 instead of a -40.
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Dan Ruddock
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The limitation on SN rated oils on phosphorus is and must be between 600-800 ppm and the zinc is tied to that amount but it is not what is limited the phosphorus is. Just because a oil is a 40 weight does not mean it has more phos (many 40/50 weights don't have it). Quaker State Defy (great name) has more and it says that right on the bottle and is a sl api. I believe about 1000 ppm.

I agree with Juanito, a stock spring engine does not need more than the 600-800 spec. This is what is so stupid about the backwards compatibility claim which assumes nobody modifies there engines.

What do I run in my modded engines, I run 4 quarts of chevron 10w40 and one quart of kendall Nitro 70 which has 2300 ppm of phos and the mix comes close to a 20w-50.

Juanito it is iron phosphate that is created not iron sulfate.

Dan
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Juanito84
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually ZDDP makes both iron phosphate and iron sulfide. But of the two, more iron sulfide is formed than iron phosphate. The "dithiophosphate" in "zincdialkyldithiophosphate" means there are two sulfur molecules for every phosphorous molecule.

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/oil/oil_camwear2.html
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Dan Ruddock
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your right and I have read that before and forgot how all three play a role. Good article. Thanks Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Juanito84 wrote:

Like I said, use the highest W number possible, keeping the two numbers as close as possible. If you don't have sub freezing weather in the summer, then 20W-40 or 15W-40 would be better than 10W-40 or 5W-40. If you do have to use a 10W or a 5W then opt for a -30 instead of a -40.


This would only apply to dino oils, with a synthetic you can benefit year around from having a wide spread between the numbers. 0w40, 5w40, and 10w40 are all fairly common weights for synthetic oils while 0w50 and 5w50 are less so but can still be found.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been putting the Lucas Break-in oil additive with Zinc in with Castrol GTX since I rebuilt my Buses type 1 engine last year. Did not know there is a Castrol oil with Zinc already in it! Don't think there is any Zinc in the Castrol GTX SAE 10w40 with sludge protection? It says on the Lucas Break-in additive bottle to only run it in the oil the first time then change it out with regular motor oil. Anyone know if it is good to keep putting the Lucas Break-in oil additive with Zinc into the engine on later oil changes?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
Been putting the Lucas Break-in oil additive with Zinc in with Castrol GTX since I rebuilt my Buses type 1 engine last year. Did not know there is a Castrol oil with Zinc already in it! Don't think there is any Zinc in the Castrol GTX SAE 10w40 with sludge protection? It says on the Lucas Break-in additive bottle to only run it in the oil the first time then change it out with regular motor oil. Anyone know if it is good to keep putting the Lucas Break-in oil additive with Zinc into the engine on later oil changes?


All motor oils have some zinc to the best of my knowledge, 10w30 and thinner oils run between 600 and 800 ppm phosphorus so the zinc will run about 700 to 900 ppm. Heavier oils and "high mileage" oils which are not restricted in their maximum phosphorus will typically run higher. You need to know how much zinc is in your present oil before adding more and you don't want to go hog wild if you use an additive, maybe only increasing the zinc by 100-200 ppm if it is fairly low to start with.

Oils have balanced additive packages, if you start just randomly adding one additive then you can mess up its balance of the other additives. There are plenty of oils out there with sufficient ZDDP for older engines, it would be easiest and best to just find one and run it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frodge wrote:
I don't want an argument. I'm changing my oil today. 10w40 or 10w30. I live in NYC.


Also another way to choose an oil grade (at least the second number without the "W") would be to pay attention to your oil pressure. Most guys use 10psi per 1000RPM as their rule of thumb. If you have less than that then next time use a higher grade. If you have much more than that then use a lower grade.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Juanito84 wrote:
Frodge wrote:
I don't want an argument. I'm changing my oil today. 10w40 or 10w30. I live in NYC.


Also another way to choose an oil grade (at least the second number without the "W") would be to pay attention to your oil pressure. Most guys use 10psi per 1000RPM as their rule of thumb. If you have less than that then next time use a higher grade. If you have much more than that then use a lower grade.

that's really what it boils down to. if you have an oil temp and pressure gauge it makes it easy to figure out what oil is the best for your engine.
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