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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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 Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| Yeah, It's API SN... I have been adding Lucas Zink Plus Brake-in oil additive for the cam. |
Good. Otherwise "bye bye cam"! Still it would seem better to just go with an SL "high mileage" oil than to add a ZDDP additive IMO. Do you know how much you are raising the ZDDP levels? Break in oil usually has too much for normal driving. Hopefully you aren't putting in the full amount. The 10W-40 and 20W-50 don't need it since the API SN ZDDP restriction doesn't apply to them.
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
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Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:45 pm Post subject: ZDDP |
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Lucus. Says here that 1 bottle will raise 5 quarts of oil to 5000 part's per million. I have been putting 1/2 a bottle! Sounds like I could make it go a bit further. So sounds like just 1/4 a bottle would be 1250 ppm ZDDP for 5 quarts of motor oil. Actual Lucus Brake In Oil Additive Web Site.
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Quokka42
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Joined: December 02, 2010
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Actually, you need to account for what's already in the oil as well. Too much ZDDP or MoS have been proven to be damaging to engines if left in for any length of time. I'm not interested in the arguments about how little is enough, but levels over 2000ppm are considered risky.
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
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Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:08 am Post subject: |
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2000 is the limit? Sounds good to know! I think this new Castrol GTX has 600 ppm so I should be ok using 1/4 a bottle per 5 quarts.
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
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Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Here's an interesting article outlining the best levels of ZDDP for engines. 1/4 bottle of your Lucus additive should be plenty.
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/oil/index.html#.UuPsl2s76SN
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:16 am Post subject: Re: ZDDP |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| Lucus. Says here that 1 bottle will raise 5 quarts of oil to 5000 part's per million. I have been putting 1/2 a bottle! Sounds like I could make it go a bit further. So sounds like just 1/4 a bottle would be 1250 ppm ZDDP for 5 quarts of motor oil. Actual Lucus Brake In Oil Additive Web Site. |
If you are increasing the amount of ZDDP by 1250ppm you are really messing with the oil chemistry. If you feel the need to run doctored oil start with something close to what you want like a high mileage 10w30 oil or most 10w40 or 20w50 oils and then add maybe 200ppm ZDDP or so. |
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
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Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I don't know, that Castrol Edge would probably be the way to go. It's just that I started running Castrol years ago and have stuck with it. I was reading all of the links suggested above, very interesting! I think I may go to Castrol Edge and not add any ZDDP next oil change.
Was reading on the Porsche "Pelican" blog about oils and they sure don't think much of Castrol Oil on there. I guess it foams up in race engines.
Some of the favorites on the Pelican Porsche Forum's are:
Mobile One for flat tappet Cam engines.
Valvoline VR1.
Brad Penn or something?
Rotella for Diesel engines.
There is some discussion that the VR1 is not street legal however.
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
Yeah, I don't know, that Castrol Edge would probably be the way to go. It's just that I started running Castrol years ago and have stuck with it. I was reading all of the links suggested above, very interesting! I think I may go to Castrol Edge and not add any ZDDP next oil change.
Was reading on the Porsche "Pelican" blog about oils and they sure don't think much of Castrol Oil on there. I guess it foams up in race engines.
Some of the favorites on the Pelican Porsche Forum's are:
Mobile One for flat tappet Cam engines.
Valvoline VR1.
Brad Penn or something?
Rotella for Diesel engines.
There is some discussion that the VR1 is not street legal however. |
Castrol Edge is not the same as the old German Castrol. It is an API SN (GF-5) oil so 0W-30 Castrol Edge has too little ZDDP, less than the 800ppm of phosphorus or 1000ppm of ZDDP needed. So don't use it unless there's a "high mileage" SL version I'm not aware about.
Here's a nice list. Also the some of the 8100 series Motul oil has enough ZDDP and of course their high performance racing oil has more than enough like most high performance and racing oils.
List of Flat-Tappet Oils
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Last edited by Juanito84 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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glutamodo 
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Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26325
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| The only Castrol Edge with higher zinc content is the 5W-50, "Classic Cars" version. |
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| There is some discussion that the VR1 is not street legal however. |
Interesting thought. What does constitute an oil as street legal or not? Not only Valvoline VR1 but also all race oils like Brad Penn, Red Line, Amsoil Dominator, Joe Gibbs etc. are not certified by the American Petroleum Institute. So I guess that would make all of them not street legal. Of the API certified oils, the newer SM and SN don't have enough ZDDP if they are 10W-30 grade or thinner. But SL is fine for stock engines with flat tappets at any grade. And race engines need race oil.
 But who's going to fine you for not using a certified oil?
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
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Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if it's even true or not. The Pelican Parts Technical BBS > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > Porsche 924/944/968 Technical Forum
What Motor Oil do you use ? Post by "9FF" reads:
"Are people here really running racing oils in street cars? Long term it isn't a good idea. The high levels of zddp is good but the lack of detergents are very bad. VR1 Racing Oil is marked "Not for street use" for a reason and that reason is the lack of detergents in the oil. Street cars need detergents in the oil, where race cars prefer an anti-foaming oil for maximum performance and that means no detergents.
From the Valvoline website:
"The Valvoline VR1 Racing "Not Street Legal" racing oils contain additional additives for increased horsepower and reduced friction on metal parts, provide extra wear protection for high compression/higher horsepower engines, and include fewer detergents than regular conventional motor oils.""
But Do you know what, I don't think I would want an oil that would contaminate a 944's catalytic converter but we VW Air-Cooled'ers don't have to worry about that! But wait I have a Porsche 924S with the same engine and catalytic converter and I have been running Castrol GTX 10W40 in that now for years! I guess I need to think the other way for it. Perhaps 10W30?
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Quokka42
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Joined: December 02, 2010
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:49 am Post subject: |
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Usually oils are "not street legal" because they contain too much sulphur and phosphorous, which can foul catalytic converters. I think you will find your laws the same as ours, though, and it is legal for classic cars. Race oils may not be suitable for street use as they do not have the corrosion inhibitors, and sometimes detergent, that are essential for the much greater oil change intervals a street vehicle sees.
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udidwht
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Joined: March 06, 2005
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Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
| Danwvw wrote: |
| There is some discussion that the VR1 is not street legal however. |
Interesting thought. What does constitute an oil as street legal or not? Not only Valvoline VR1 but also all race oils like Brad Penn, Red Line, Amsoil Dominator, Joe Gibbs etc. are not certified by the American Petroleum Institute. So I guess that would make all of them not street legal. Of the API certified oils, the newer SM and SN don't have enough ZDDP if they are 10W-30 grade or thinner. But SL is fine for stock engines with flat tappets at any grade. And race engines need race oil.
But who's going to fine you for not using a certified oil? |
There are (2) versions of VR1 sold. One street legal and one not street legal. In the end...one has nothing to worry about if you choose to purchase one or the other.
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Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
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73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| I have been running Castrol GTX 10W40 in that now for years! I guess I need to think the other way for it. Perhaps 10W30? |
Isn't Castrol GTX API SN certified? If so, then 10W-30 would have a ZDDP restriction that would be too low so don't use it. But 10W-40 would not be under the same restriction, so it probably is fine as long as it's not giving you too high oil pressure.
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udidwht
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Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
| Danwvw wrote: |
| I have been running Castrol GTX 10W40 in that now for years! I guess I need to think the other way for it. Perhaps 10W30? |
Isn't Castrol GTX API SN certified? If so, then 10W-30 would have a ZDDP restriction that would be too low so don't use it. But 10W-40 would not be under the same restriction, so it probably is fine as long as it's not giving you too high oil pressure. |
In a nutshell...not all SN rated oils are required to have lower ZDDP amounts regardless of their viscosity.
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1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| udidwht wrote: |
| Juanito84 wrote: |
| Danwvw wrote: |
| I have been running Castrol GTX 10W40 in that now for years! I guess I need to think the other way for it. Perhaps 10W30? |
Isn't Castrol GTX API SN certified? If so, then 10W-30 would have a ZDDP restriction that would be too low so don't use it. But 10W-40 would not be under the same restriction, so it probably is fine as long as it's not giving you too high oil pressure. |
In a nutshell...not all SN rated oils are required to have lower ZDDP amounts regardless of their viscosity. |
Nutshells are nice. But I do prefer the whole nut. How do you know this?
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udidwht
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Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
| udidwht wrote: |
| Juanito84 wrote: |
| Danwvw wrote: |
| I have been running Castrol GTX 10W40 in that now for years! I guess I need to think the other way for it. Perhaps 10W30? |
Isn't Castrol GTX API SN certified? If so, then 10W-30 would have a ZDDP restriction that would be too low so don't use it. But 10W-40 would not be under the same restriction, so it probably is fine as long as it's not giving you too high oil pressure. |
In a nutshell...not all SN rated oils are required to have lower ZDDP amounts regardless of their viscosity. |
Nutshells are nice. But I do prefer the whole nut. How do you know this? |
Simple...research. Here's a good example.
Take for instance Valvoline 10W-30 VR1. It's an SN rated oil but is not required to have the lower ZDDP levels. There are also (2) versions of this oil. One labeled 'Street legal' and the other labeled ' Not street legal'.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| udidwht wrote: |
Simple...research. Here's a good example.
Take for instance Valvoline 10W-30 VR1. It's an SN rated oil but is not required to have the lower ZDDP levels. There are also (2) versions of this oil. One labeled 'Street legal' and the other labeled ' Not street legal'. |
Ok, I see.
However, I'm under the impression that just because an oil has "API rated" on the bottle does not make it "API certified". A lot of oils claim to meet certain API ratings. But do they all have this on the bottle?
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vwracerdave
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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The Valvoline VR-1 "Not Street Legal" racing oil has much lower amounts of detergents that are very important to long service life of street driven engines. Racing engines don't need detergents because the oil is changed often.
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Wildthings
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