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rrcade
Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010
Posts: 735
Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Why do MOST of the big boys with drag cars run 20/50? It's obviously not just "because they saw others were using it" I mean when you have 20,000 or more into a car I would think you would know what you were doing and not just running what other guys in Hot Vws are running?? |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50351
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| rrcade wrote: |
| Why do MOST of the big boys with drag cars run 20/50? It's obviously not just "because they saw others were using it" I mean when you have 20,000 or more into a car I would think you would know what you were doing and not just running what other guys in Hot Vws are running?? |
How these big boys operate their engines and what they know and don't know about lubrication has nothing to do with how most ACVW engines are operated. I don't ever give my engine full throttle at idle, rev the $hit out of it and put it under load for a few seconds, and then cut it off, can't hardly think of an easier life for a load of motor oil.
I need an oil that will protect my engine through daily cold starts followed by a 4000' climb day after day, year after year, and worse it has to cold start on a winter evening and then come down that same hill with the engine never really warming up. Sorry, I need a real oil, not what those so called big boys run. |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76938
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| rrcade wrote: |
| Why do MOST of the big boys with drag cars run 20/50? It's obviously not just "because they saw others were using it" I mean when you have 20,000 or more into a car I would think you would know what you were doing and not just running what other guys in Hot Vws are running?? |
I have more than $20k into mine, will you blindly do what I do?
Drag engine are torn down and rebuilt every few passes, so unless you plan on rebuilding your engine after everytime you drive it, I would not do what drag racers do.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Quokka42
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| rrcade wrote: |
| Why do MOST of the big boys with drag cars run 20/50? It's obviously not just "because they saw others were using it" I mean when you have 20,000 or more into a car I would think you would know what you were doing and not just running what other guys in Hot Vws are running?? |
That's a pretty wild claim.
When I was doing race engines we kept everything a secret. Sure, old school was loose tolerances and thick oil, but later evidence was that as it did not reach operating temperature a lot of the time in drag applications it would actually cause problems with the rings. But while we were experimenting with thin oils and tight tolerances, we were sometimes beaten by the old school guys...
I've given my opinion - I don't think there's anything wrong with running 20W50 in a VW engine if you need it - usually very hot climate or a worn engine. I haven't needed more than 15W40 in Australia, except in a very tiered engine to keep it going to rebuild (we can actually get a 20W60 here.)
If your boost is such that you suffer fuel dilution of the oil in the course of a run, then the thickest you can get is probably your best bet.
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There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross. |
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rrcade
Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010
Posts: 735
Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
I have more than $20k into mine, will you blindly do what I do?
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Everyone does......  In case you haven't noticed you're kind of a Big Deal around here
But seriously my car has run 20/50 for 15 years since the birth of its 2276 that's street driven and has run 11.80 in the 1/4 Last summer I played with viscosities to see what effect it had on oil temps i didn't see any huge change I'm currently running BP 10/40 but something just don't "feel" right I'm gonna go back to the old 20/50 it's always used but I'll try the BP instead of Dino
My oil temps are more a product of 10.8:1 compression than oil choice and the temps ain't that out of hand |
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oilcan
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2015
Posts: 3
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:25 am Post subject: |
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I found the VR_1 racing syn oil to be more expensive than the same in dino. My experience with motorcycles is that syn oil runs cooler. I have gathered that syn oil is the preferred oil in VW's. So do you think the VR-1 dino works well? And what viscosity? I will not be driving in extreme heat, or cold, and not that many miles per year, 3-4 thousand miles a year, so 2 oil changes a year.
Thanks for responses. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50351
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| rrcade wrote: |
| My oil temps are more a product of 10.8:1 compression than oil choice and the temps ain't that out of hand |
Okay, explain to me the connection between compression ratio and oil temperatures. Seems odd to me that increasing the efficiency of the engine would raise oil temps. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26788
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quokka42 wrote: |
When I was doing race engines we kept everything a secret. Sure, old school was loose tolerances and thick oil, but later evidence was that as it did not reach operating temperature a lot of the time in drag applications it would actually cause problems with the rings. But while we were experimenting with thin oils and tight tolerances, we were sometimes beaten by the old school guys...
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You CAN run 20-50 weight but the clearances must be on the loose end, especially rod bearings, .0025" MIN clearance OR the oil needs to be really HOT, as in endurance racing.
My engines are built "old school" so I run 15-40 in hot temps after broken in.
VR-1 dino seems to be GREAT stuff.
10-30 is a normal weight, for normal bearing clearances, and normal temperatures.
Sorry to be a broken record but oil mythology takes a long time to change, like religion! |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| rrcade wrote: |
| My oil temps are more a product of 10.8:1 compression than oil choice and the temps ain't that out of hand |
Okay, explain to me the connection between compression ratio and oil temperatures. Seems odd to me that increasing the efficiency of the engine would raise oil temps. |
No. But if you change the air pressure in the spare tire I find that has a huge effect on oil temps!
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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rrcade
Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010
Posts: 735
Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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I was under the impression that
1. The higher the compression, the higher the combustion efficiency. This means more power.
2. The higher the compression ratio, the higher the temperature in the cylinder
3. Pistons in cylinders are lubricated by oil
4. Oil in contact with a hotter than normal cylinder will get....well "hotter"than normal
Am I completely wrong here?
Thanks for the tip on spare tire, glad I don't have one or my Temps would be off the chart |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| rrcade wrote: |
I was under the impression that
1. The higher the compression, the higher the combustion efficiency. This means more power.
2. The higher the compression ratio, the higher the temperature in the cylinder
3. Pistons in cylinders are lubricated by oil
4. Oil in contact with a hotter than normal cylinder will get....well "hotter"than normal
Am I completely wrong here?
Thanks for the tip on spare tire, glad I don't have one or my Temps would be off the chart |
Yes and no. When you are cruising down the same stretch of road with more efficiency the power output will still be the same. Yes, the engine is more efficient, so yes, if the throttle is held open at the same angle as before it will produce more power. But if that happened then the car would be accelerating and would end up going faster. Mind you that even then you only increased the efficiency, meaning more heat is turned into power (which equals less heat). Now add that to the fact that you must close the throttle to cuise at the same speed as before. Now not only are you converting more heat into power but you are also using less fuel and producing less heat. So in the end increasing CR tends to decrease temps.
Now if you are running full throttle that's a different story.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Quokka42
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:03 am Post subject: |
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If you are always running full throttle you need to build a bigger engine!
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There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross. |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am Post subject: |
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Just plainly put, the higher the efficiency the lower the heat output. If your engine were 100% efficient the exhaut temperature would be the same as the intake temp and there would also be absolutely no need to cool the enigine.
If the engine is 50% efficient than only 50% of the energy is being turned into power. The other 50% is being turned into heat. If it's 25% efficent, then 25% turns into power and 75% turns into heat. Etc. etc. etc.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2105
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:42 am Post subject: |
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set a stock-cammed engine for 10:1 and see what's your oil temperature  |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| rrcade wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
I have more than $20k into mine, will you blindly do what I do?
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Everyone does...... In case you haven't noticed you're kind of a Big Deal around here
But seriously my car has run 20/50 for 15 years since the birth of its 2276 that's street driven and has run 11.80 in the 1/4 Last summer I played with viscosities to see what effect it had on oil temps i didn't see any huge change I'm currently running BP 10/40 but something just don't "feel" right I'm gonna go back to the old 20/50 it's always used but I'll try the BP instead of Dino
My oil temps are more a product of 10.8:1 compression than oil choice and the temps ain't that out of hand |
I think it's more than just your CR. First of all you have a 2276cc engine. Now for cruising around that's all right. But what about full throttle? Do you have a stock cooling system, or worse, one of those cheap Scat or Empi cooling shrouds? So you increase the amount of fuel the thing burns yet then you decrease cooling or keep it the same? Of course I don't know what cooling shroud you have. Hopefully it's much more powerful.
Also yes, the 10.8 CR can have a lot to do with it. But it's not because you've increased efficiency. Like I've said, if you increased efficiency then you are converting more heat into power so then you end up with less heat. If you over do CR then you have to cut back efficencies elsewhere, like timing back the ignition. Now it's possibly not more efficient, it's quite possibly less efficient so less heat turns into power and more of it heats the engine. Also you likely have a high profile cam. So then you've cut back the dynamic CR. Now it's the dynamic CR that stipulates the efficiency, not the static. You could have a static CR of 20:1, but if your valve timing puts it back at 7:1 then your efficiency is still the same as any 7:1 engine.
Also this is an 11.80 second engine in the quarter mile. Cool! But I just can't see a several hundred horsepower engine like yours just not creating a lot of heat when you put it to use, period. Remember, it's the fuel that you burn that heats the engine. If you cruise along and find you are getting 40mpg, then you should be getting very cool engine temperatures. If you only get 15mpg, then you're burning a bunch more fuel and getting a lot more heat. Now put your foot into it and how many miles per gallon do you think you are getting? All that fuel is burning, and probably less than 15% of it is turning into power. The other 85% is heating the engine and the exhaust.
I think all that has more to do with you needing a 50 weight oil for driving. Also what are your bearing clearances? But no, the 10.8:1 CR isn't in itself causing hot oil. If you made a little efficient fuel sipping engine with a high CR then you most likely would have problems keeping your oil temperature up.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
| NAPA has VR-1 on sale this month. |
I have several bottles each of this stuff at home, in SAE30 and in 10W/30. Which would I be better off using at my next oil change in my h30/31, header exhaust, 1600SP? Daily driver, about 60-75 miles mixed city/highway driving every day in my 61 rag with the stock ratio transaxle, I cruise at 60-70mph. Engine is within tolerances on endplay and runs great. I currently run o/Reilly brand 10/30 but feel like a bum putting cheap oil in it, just using up the last of it that I had. I know this is a heavy question for most of you religious types, but any suggestions would be appreciated. Also, it's this stuff good for breaking in a new build? I figure it I have it and it works well it'll save a few bucks.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50351
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
| vwracerdave wrote: |
| NAPA has VR-1 on sale this month. |
I have several bottles each of this stuff at home, in SAE30 and in 10W/30. Which would I be better off using at my next oil change in my h30/31, header exhaust, 1600SP? Daily driver, about 60-75 miles mixed city/highway driving every day in my 61 rag with the stock ratio transaxle, I cruise at 60-70mph. Engine is within tolerances on endplay and runs great. I currently run o/Reilly brand 10/30 but feel like a bum putting cheap oil in it, just using up the last of it that I had. I know this is a heavy question for most of you religious types, but any suggestions would be appreciated. Also, it's this stuff good for breaking in a new build? I figure it I have it and it works well it'll save a few bucks. |
There is no right and wrong answer. Pick an oil and go with it and see if it works for you and your driving style. |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15308
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Use the 30W during summer when it's 60* or above. You can use the 10W-30 all year long.
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1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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Phil911
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2014
Posts: 176
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:56 am Post subject: |
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I just picked up Quaker State Defy 5/30 ... it already has a Zinc additive. I hope it will be ok even though its not Rotella lol
I mean really, theres lots of discussion about this but at the end of the day, does the metal really care as long as its slippery?
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BenJAMin
Samba Member
Joined: February 01, 2004
Posts: 461
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| It will probably be fine. If you were to be doing something really crazy like racing or something it might be different. |
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