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vwracerdave
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
I have been running GTX mostly 10W40 since 1985 and have run it in the 356A, the 67 Beetle and the 71 bus and have run 1.25 Ratio Rockers, Stock heads and valve springs and have torn down and looked at the stock cams as well as a W100 and some Scat lightweight lifters purchased back in 1998 they all looked fine and were able to be reused. The only additive I used was some Slick-50 back then which rusted out my muffler!
I think the 5W30 perhaps the 10W30 also is 800 ppm ZDDP. But probably it was more in the 80's. ZDDP? Yes or No?


It's time to get your head out of the past and stop using GTX. I recommend you switch to Valvoline VR-1 racing oil. It has the correct amount of ZDDP and you DO NOT have to add anything else. When Napa has it on sale I buy 2-3 cases.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was in at NAPA Yesterday looking at it. The one thay had was like a 20W50. I am concerned about my 26mm oil pump building too much pressure. I tested it at over 80 PSI at 60 degrees on first start on Streight 30 Weight! With the 5W30 it should run cooler!
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
Was in at NAPA Yesterday looking at it. The one thay had was like a 20W50. I am concerned about my 26mm oil pump building too much pressure. I tested it at over 80 PSI at 60 degrees on first start on Streight 30 Weight! With the 5W30 it should run cooler!


Strait 30 and 5W-30 are supposed to have the same viscosity at around 212°F (100°C). So it shouldn't run any cooler with 5W-30.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, but the 20W50 probably runs a lot hotter. But the the 5W30 is lower oil pressure when the engine is cold. With aftermarket 26mm oil pumps you need to stick with lighter starting weight oils. 10W is ok in the summer. 5W ok here where it's between 32F and 50F degrees in the winter but If I were somehere it getts really cold like 15F degrees or less I am afraid the aftermarket oil pump would be needing to be changed to a 22mm or what ever they were stock! Perhaps 0W oils.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree about 20W-50 being a tad too thick, perhaps increasing oil temps. I prefer to figure out how to keep oil temps down than to use thick oil to compensate (and make it worse at the same time.)

I get well below 0°F during the winters here. I'll be using 0W-30. I am going to use a 30mm pump but I've got a dual relief case with the front oil pressure control valve having a drilled out port.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
Was in at NAPA Yesterday looking at it. The one thay had was like a 20W50.


Did you ask the counter guy or just look on the shelf. They usually only stock the 20W-50 because that is what the V-8 guy use. They can order in whatever weight you want and have it the next day. VR-1 comes in a case of 6 qts. It comes in both synthetic and conventional. http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Result.aspx?Ntt%...d3%26N%3d0
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, talked to the NAPA guys, Good point! We have one of the smallest demographic's in the US here so they only stock the one VR-1 weight! Might have the 10W30 VR-1 in the winter? We put regular Valvaline 30 straight weight in a 69 Bus stock engine the other day, I wonder how much ZDDP it has? I will think about using VR-1 on my Spare engine I am building now.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
We put regular Valvaline 30 straight weight in a 69 Bus stock engine the other day, I wonder how much ZDDP it has?


Don't know the amount of ZDDP it has, but do know that the level of phosphorus/zinc/ZDDP is not restricted for straight weight oils. Straight weight oils also do not contain viscosity modifiers, the additives in dino multiviscosity oils which break down and cause engine deposits.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

while we are all stuck with this oil situation...VR-1 doesnt have detergents that the normal oils do....so remember to change frequently
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vwracerdave
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

air-h2o-air wrote:
while we are all stuck with this oil situation...VR-1 doesnt have detergents that the normal oils do....so remember to change frequently


VR-1 DOES have detergents, just a different amount then non racing oils. Racing oil also has anti-foaming agents for high RPM's that will not hurt street cars.
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Russbus
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:09 pm    Post subject: Oil Choice Reply with quote

(Head spinning at this point - keep it simple or you'll be talking over my head... Valvoline VR-1 at 3k miles was suggested by vwracerdave on now locked thread that got bumped here.)

My '70 bus sat in the woods at a relative's place for about 8 years, but I recently put some time into it and got it running. Stuck some dino SAE 30 in it and drove it home about 5 weeks ago - about 60 miles. Sounds good. No oil leaks except at the drain plug. It's a stock 1600 SP w/ stock oil cooler. No filter, just the screen. It's well broken in, with maybe 10k miles on it. High temps here now are routinely 95+ and will stay close to that into September. Lows are often around 55-60. I have no pressure gauge or temp gauge - just the stock idiot light.

Between '78 and '08, my 2 stock SP buses, 2 stock SP bugs, and 1 stock SP Ghia always got single-grade SAE 40 in the summer, 30 otherwise. I have never blown an engine prematurely. I had no problem back then making 30-40-30 changes throughout the year at roughly 1,500 mile intervals. I have no problem doing that now, either. Driving habits: I do mostly easy around-town driving, with an occasional load 2x4's or similar on the roof rack; every couple of weeks I might take a drive of 40 miles and make an elevation change of 2,000 feet or so.

So what's my problem? I've been reading threads here and material at aircooled.net, busdepot.com, and ratwell.com about ZDDP, multi-grades, and synthetics; I've been looking at charts, and trying to absorb arguments over oil temperature and ambient temperature. But now I just want to change my freaking oil, and I'm freaked out.

So... keeping my car, situation and experience in mind, 2 questions:

1.) Is there a straightforward, compelling argument out there (90 words or less????) to persuade me I need to do something different?

2.) If so, what oil, weight(s) and change interval?

Thanks for your ideas.
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would go with the vr1 or brad Penn oil and get the berg dip stick temp gauge.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Oil Choice Reply with quote

Russbus wrote:

2.) If so, what oil, weight(s) and change interval?

Thanks for your ideas.


This picture is of one of the heads off my bus, with about 200K on it at the time the picture was taken. I had run 30wt in the summer and 10w30 in the winter for many years and then switched to a synthetic about 10 years ago. When the engine was pulled down at 250K miles three of the pistons were almost perfect and the fourth was failing due to a manufacturing defect (the pin bore wasn't 100% square with the axis of the piston). Since synthetics don't use viscosity modifiers there are no VM to break down and gum up the engine.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



This picture is of an engine out of a 412 with unknown miles, but which hadn't been run in decades. It was most likely run on multigrade oils and and had seen a lot of leaded fuel, maybe even having been run on high test. The lack of wear on the valves would lead me to believe that the engine had far fewer miles than the above engine, while the wear on the pistons and cylinders was significant in comparison. Between the lead deposits and the burn oil, the oil rings on all the pistons were gummed up to the point they could not do their job properly leading to adverse piston and cylinder wear.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I am going to admit that newer multigrades are going to hold up better to heat than multigrades did several decades ago when these rigs were new, but straight weight oils have been improved over that time frame as well and have higher viscosity indexes than earlier straight weight oils and are more stable at higher temperatures. A carefully chosen straight 30wt today is going to perform in cold weather about like a 10w30 - 20w30 but without needing viscosity modifying additives to do so and will handle heat not that much differently from a synthetic.

You need an oil thick enough to give you decent hot point pressure. The rule of thumb is 10psi per 1000 rpms.
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Russbus
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK Wild... my head hurts. 250k on an engine is... awesome. But in a nutshell you're saying that in your experience, multi-grade dino oils (even though you used them in winter on engine #1) - like VR-1, right? - have damaging VM additives I should avoid. Today's straight-weight 30 dinos or a synthetic 10w30 are your rec. - even in extra high summer temps (no switch from straight 30 to 40?)

If I've got that right... which oil brands?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russbus wrote:
OK Wild... my head hurts. 250k on an engine is... awesome. But in a nutshell you're saying that in your experience, multi-grade dino oils (even though you used them in winter on engine #1) - like VR-1, right? - have damaging VM additives I should avoid. Today's straight-weight 30 dinos or a synthetic 10w30 are your rec. - even in extra high summer temps (no switch from straight 30 to 40?)

If I've got that right... which oil brands?


One thing I've read on a couple of sites with excellent reasoning was to not use too thick of an oil on single port, only one relief valve engines. These engines have the smaller oil passages in them. The argument was that the too thick of oil can cause too much pressure and not let the oil relief valve open and let the oil go thru the oil cooler until the engine oil is really hot and thins out.

An example- I live in Phoenix. Both my bugs are bone stock, single port engines with small oil passages. One was running a bit hotter than it should of in 100 degree heat. I was running 10-40 in it. It only had 5k miles on the motor since rebuild, thus the bearing tolerances where tight. The timing was set correctly. The carb was jetted right. It had all the tin in place. I read those two articles on the thick oil causing too much pressure and the relief valve not opening till the engine got really hot. I lowered my oil viscosity down to 10-30 and saw a 10 degree drop in engine temperatures. If an engine is really worn, then a thicker oil may be needed to maintain the correct oil pressure per 1000 RPM.

What I've read over the years is to obviously change your oil frequently, at least every 3k miles since we have no oil filters. Make sure the oil has enough of the correct additives for our VW engine cams and lifters. I run Shell Rotello 10-30 dino oil year around here in Phoenix. It's for diesel engines and has plenty of the zinc for our cams and lifters. There's other oils that have the correct additives for gas engines as well.

Everyone has their view points on what oils to use. If you read enough pages on this site, you'll find common trends.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is not one best oil, lets get that straight from the get go. I can't say there is anything wrong with running VR-1, it may handle the heat just fine, but then again if it has fewer detergents maybe it would cause problems after a lot of miles. There is a VR-1 straight 30wt, IIRC.

I am happy with the oils I have run, mostly Mobile 1 for the synthetics, and I have never been that picky when it came to dino oils, I have always just avoided the cheapest ones on the shelf. There are certain more racing or non street legal oils to chose from today at a FLAPS or Walmart than a decade or more ago, but there again what happens when you want to go hundreds of thousands of miles between teardowns instead of a few thousand or a few ten thousands?

Diesel oils seem like a good option to me as well, diesels work hard continuously so have to see a lot of heat and need a good load of detergents. Most diesel oils also carry an "S" rating for use in gas engines. It is my understanding that at least some 15w40 diesel oils are refined to the point they need few if any viscosity modifiers.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to both for the replies. It's all getting a bit clearer.

"Make sure the oil has enough of the correct additives for our VW engine cams and lifters."

So... a racing oil with higher zinc/phosphorous levels, right?

"I have never been that picky when it came to dino oils..."

Me either. But I want to be if I should be, and before, you suggested "A carefully chosen straight 30wt" and mentioned the Valvoline VR-1 straight 30wt dino. If that's similar to the multi-grades in performance, as you say, I think I'll give it a try. It has the higher zinc/phosphorous levels. (The synthetic sounds great, but the dino 30wt. VR-1 sounds better as it's not $12/qt. like the synthetic VR-1 black bottle stuff.)

Question: The PDS on the dino VR-1 30 wt. says it "Protects against high-temperature deposits for a cleaner engine." Do you know if it has the right level of detergents?

Question 2 is whether higher zinc/phosphorous levels matter that much... when you ran the synthetic for 10 years in your bus, Wildthings, did it have those higher levels of zinc and phosphorous? Or did you get your results with the .08 levels that I see now on the data sheets for the standard Valvoline synpower (non-racing) oil? The non-racing stuff certainly has a better price point.

Valvoline Synpower: http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/synpower.pdf
Valvoline VR-1 racing (dino): http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/vr1_racing.pdf
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well give the VR-1 30wt a try and get back to us on what you think of it over time. Maybe throw a quart in the freezer and let us know how well it pours compared to a 10w30 oils after a few days.

Here is the chart for the various Mobile 1 oils. Check the 5w40, any of the "high mileage" oils, and the 15w50 for zinc and phosphorus.

https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.ashx
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the Mobil 1 data, Wildthings. Yeah, I see the 15w-50 at well above 1000 ppm for zinc and phosphorous. And in the "high-mileage" variety, 10w-30 and 10w-40 are above 1000 as well. Price is much better on these than the VR-1 synthetics. Which of these would be reasonable to start with in my situation, if I go synthetic?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need sufficient hot oil pressure and only experimentation is going to give you that info. I have run the Mobile 1 5w40 Turbo Diesel Oil a lot and finds it works fine for my engines up to around a 110°F ambient. Above that I have found I need something thicker.
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