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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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 Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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The reason you shouldn't use diesel oil in a gasoline engine is because it's for diesel engines. Likewise you shouldn't use gasoline oil in a diesel engine because it's for gasoline engines. So if there's a "C" in the API spec then don't use it in a gasoline engine. Also if there's an "S" in the API spec then don't use it in a diesel engine.
Now go down to you local autoparts store and find an oil with an "S" but no "C".
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
The reason you shouldn't use diesel oil in a gasoline engine is because it's for diesel engines. Likewise you shouldn't use gasoline oil in a diesel engine because it's for gasoline engines. So if there's a "C" in the API spec then don't use it in a gasoline engine. Also if there's an "S" in the API spec then don't use it in a diesel engine.
Now go down to you local autoparts store and find an oil with an "S" but no "C". |
Where I live at least one would be hard pressed to find a "C" rated oil that didn't also have an "S" rating. Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel, Delo 400le, and Rotella T-6 5w40 Diesel engine oils all carry an SN rating. Even many of the Diesel oils that don't have an S rating on the bottle will be found to have an S rating if you search long enough for it. I can get this Cenex oil at my local farm supply, it doesn't say anything about being "S" rated on the bottle or even on the first webpage you come to:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAXXENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1_ESP_5W-40.aspx
But a look at the Product Data Sheet shows that it is SN rated.
http://www.cenex.com/~/media/cenex/files/lubricant...75-11.ashx
The majority of Diesel oils out there are just fine for use in a gasoline engine, even the ones approved for 2007 and later Diesel engines.
| Quote: |
| Now go down to you local autoparts store and find an oil with an "S" but no "C". |
By this skewed logic, you might as well be saying that most of the Diesel engine oil out there shouldn't be used in a Diesel engine because they also carry an "S" rating. Pretty idiotic chain of thought if you ask me. |
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glutamodo 
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26325
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| I think that was a fully-tongue-in-cheek comment. |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| glutamodo wrote: |
| I think that was a fully-tongue-in-cheek comment. |
I don't know what that means but yes, I was being sarcastic. Here all the gasoline oils are rated for diesel use. So then what?
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
| glutamodo wrote: |
| I think that was a fully-tongue-in-cheek comment. |
I don't know what that means but yes, I was being sarcastic. Here all the gasoline oils are rated for diesel use. So then what? |
Oils that have only an SM/SN rating are actually pretty easy to find on the shelf of a FLAPS or Walmart, while it is hard to find an oil that only has a C rating without having to special order it. Not that they can't be had, but I think that much of the reason Diesel oils like the one I posted the link to above don't put an S rating on the bottle is for macho reasons and nothing more.
I moved a maintenance operation I ran 30 years ago over for running special oils for all different kinds of rigs to running a single all fleet oil. Heard predictions of doom from all levels in the company for the first month or two after the change and then never heard another word during the remained of the time I worked there. |
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hiwaycallin
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 356
Location: Salmon Arm, BC
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Just spent the last couple of days reading through this and similar oil threads on other forums. Learned more than I wanted to  . I now realize that there are likely several good choices for my situation and have narrowed them down to 4 (based on what I have read and what is available locally). Please help me choose the best option.
My situation:
- 1978 bus with a freshly rebuilt Headflowmasters 2.0 engine (solid lifters, webcam 142)
- driven only from spring til fall in temps ranging from 0-40 degrees C (32-104 F), but mostly in the 10-32 C range (50-90 F)
My choices (all synthetic):
- Castrol Edge 5W-50 ("... especially suited for older vehicles with flat tappet engines")
- Castrol Edge 5W-40 ("... specially formulated to meet the needs of BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen")
- Mobil 1 15W-50
- Royal Purple 15W-40
I just want to do right by my new engine. Given my situation, which oil would YOU choose? |
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Boolean
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012
Posts: 1712
Location: Stockholm
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| hiwaycallin wrote: |
My choices (all synthetic):
- Castrol Edge 5W-50 ("... especially suited for older vehicles with flat tappet engines")
- Castrol Edge 5W-40 ("... specially formulated to meet the needs of BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen")
- Mobil 1 15W-50
- Royal Purple 15W-40
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New engines don't need a 40 or 50 wt oil.
5W-30
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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I agree. If you have low oil pressure with xxW-30 then either you need more cooling or your bearings are worn. Not that 50 weight won't work, but how many new engines come with a 50 weight recomendation? None that I know of.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
| I agree. If you have low oil pressure with xxW-30 then either you need more cooling or your bearings are worn. Not that 50 weight won't work, but how many new engines come with a 50 weight recomendation? None that I know of. |
Pretty much whenever VW recommended multigrades they recommended xxW-50 weight oils.
I see no reason to believe a 5w40 or even a 5w50 oil will give any kind of problem, including excessively high oil temps included, in a tight engine in normal use. If you are worried about oil temps run a synthetic oil and then don't worry any more. Wink
. |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Good luck trying to start your car at -10ºC with 20W-50.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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hiwaycallin
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 356
Location: Salmon Arm, BC
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the feedback!
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Juanito84 wrote: |
| I agree. If you have low oil pressure with xxW-30 then either you need more cooling or your bearings are worn. Not that 50 weight won't work, but how many new engines come with a 50 weight recomendation? None that I know of. |
Pretty much whenever VW recommended multigrades they recommended xxW-50 weight oils.
... |
Yes, this was my first consideration as well as the fact that most bus owners who post about oil in the Bay Window forum use 20w50. I'm just concerned that the "20" might not be optimal in spring and fall where I live.
The other reason is that (as I have learned from some of your other posts WT) oils where the last # is 40 or higher are not limited as to zinc content. I was able to verify (through posts on various forums) that at least 3 of the 4 oils I listed contain what is considered to be the correct zinc content for flat tappet engines (~1200-1300 ppm).
| Wildthings wrote: |
I see no reason to believe a 5w40 or even a 5w50 oil will give any kind of problem, including excessively high oil temps included, in a tight engine in normal use. If you are worried about oil temps run a synthetic oil and then don't worry any more. Wink
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I was not able to verify the zinc content of Castrol Edge 5w40 but it made my short list specifically because I WAS concerned that a 50 weight oil may be a bit too thick for a tight engine. If not, maybe I'll just go with the Castrol 5w50. Below is something I found interesting from another forum ... apparently a response from Castrol regarding a 2011 inquiry. Basically says that the current 5w50 is similar to the former 20w50 except better in the cold. Sounds like it might be my best option.
| Quote: |
| "Castrol SYNTEC 20W-50 classic car formulation is being replaced by Castrol Edge with SYNTEC Power Technology in the 5W-50 viscosity grade. The 5W-50 grade will also be specially formulated for classic car use and will adopt the 20W-50 claims – designed for use in classic cars. The 5W-50 formulation will contain more zinc additives than the 20W-50 and will also enhance start up ability in cold temperatures as well as enable better fuel economy* *Compared to SAE 20W-50." |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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They might have made it a strange weight so it can be sold in stores, and nobody will accidentally put it in their honda.
If it says on the label that it is for classic engines, then it's the right one.
Just read the labels  |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| hiwaycallin wrote: |
Thanks for the feedback!
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Juanito84 wrote: |
| I agree. If you have low oil pressure with xxW-30 then either you need more cooling or your bearings are worn. Not that 50 weight won't work, but how many new engines come with a 50 weight recomendation? None that I know of. |
Pretty much whenever VW recommended multigrades they recommended xxW-50 weight oils.
... |
Yes, this was my first consideration as well as the fact that most bus owners who post about oil in the Bay Window forum use 20w50. I'm just concerned that the "20" might not be optimal in spring and fall where I live.
The other reason is that (as I have learned from some of your other posts WT) oils where the last # is 40 or higher are not limited as to zinc content. I was able to verify (through posts on various forums) that at least 3 of the 4 oils I listed contain what is considered to be the correct zinc content for flat tappet engines (~1200-1300 ppm).
| Wildthings wrote: |
I see no reason to believe a 5w40 or even a 5w50 oil will give any kind of problem, including excessively high oil temps included, in a tight engine in normal use. If you are worried about oil temps run a synthetic oil and then don't worry any more. Wink
|
I was not able to verify the zinc content of Castrol Edge 5w40 but it made my short list specifically because I WAS concerned that a 50 weight oil may be a bit too thick for a tight engine. If not, maybe I'll just go with the Castrol 5w50. Below is something I found interesting from another forum ... apparently a response from Castrol regarding a 2011 inquiry. Basically says that the current 5w50 is similar to the former 20w50 except better in the cold. Sounds like it might be my best option.
| Quote: |
| "Castrol SYNTEC 20W-50 classic car formulation is being replaced by Castrol Edge with SYNTEC Power Technology in the 5W-50 viscosity grade. The 5W-50 grade will also be specially formulated for classic car use and will adopt the 20W-50 claims – designed for use in classic cars. The 5W-50 formulation will contain more zinc additives than the 20W-50 and will also enhance start up ability in cold temperatures as well as enable better fuel economy* *Compared to SAE 20W-50." |
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I have 24 quarts of the syntec 5w-50 you are talking about. Would you like to buy at a discount? |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Oh you are in BC might be to costly to ship.
Dan |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
I see no reason to believe a 5w40 or even a 5w50 oil will give any kind of problem, including excessively high oil temps included, in a tight engine in normal use. If you are worried about oil temps run a synthetic oil and then don't worry any more. Wink
. |
And I'm not saying 40 or 50 weight doesn't work. There are lot's of guys who won't put anything else in there other than 20W-50. But then there's those who won't use anything other than straight 30 or 10W-30 or even one guy who only uses 0W-20 in his Bug. I haven't heard anything bad from any of them
I guess it's just my personal preference to chose in the middle or a bit to the thin side. For one, VW recommended a multi-grade 50 as the thickest oil possible when a multigrade 40 or straight 30 would work the same. Technically a multigrade 30 should be the same viscosity at running temps as straight 30. Of course then there's that 10W-30 or thinner SN oil to watch out for. One thing I found interesting is that my 2001 Chevy astro has a 0W/5W/10W-30 recomendation in the owner's manual. But when you look at recomended oils outside the USA it recommends anything from 0W-20 to 25W-50 depending on the ambient temps! But after 165,000 miles I don't see where the 5W-30 it's used all it's life did any damage to it. My 1985 Golf has a list that's nearly identical to the old AC VW lists too. All this has lead me to my own conclusions based on my pure guess.
But still, if you get good oil pressure with whatever-30, then why use 40 or 50? I guess in my mind it's kind of like weather that's warm enough to turn over fine with 10W-xx doesn't need 0W oil. Not that 0W or xx-50 is the end of the road, but why go right to the limit instead of somewhere in the middle unless your circumstances truely merit the limit, like artic temps or worn bearings.
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26325
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Funny you would mention the 85 Golf though, as that owner's manual has a note in it. Regarding the GTI models with the multi-function-interface display on the dashboard, which could display a digital reading of the oil temperature:
I've mentioned this before, not sure if it was in this thread or not. But really, 320°F is supposed to be the "redline"?
I kind of wish my 85 Golf was a GTI, so I could eyeball that one myself.
-Andy |
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69830
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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My old '87 16V GTI hit 250F according to the onboard computer a few times in the AZ summer when I was on the freeway.
Nothing blew up, although I did concern me until I saw that too since I knew the air-cooled engine max is 250F.
I remember using Castrol 20W/50 in it but I could be wrong on that.
The guy that bought the car later told me the timing chain was off by one notch so that may have been a factor.
Apparently I bought the car that way.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
I see no reason to believe a 5w40 or even a 5w50 oil will give any kind of problem, including excessively high oil temps included, in a tight engine in normal use. If you are worried about oil temps run a synthetic oil and then don't worry any more. Wink
. |
And I'm not saying 40 or 50 weight doesn't work. There are lot's of guys who won't put anything else in there other than 20W-50. But then there's those who won't use anything other than straight 30 or 10W-30 or even one guy who only uses 0W-20 in his Bug. I haven't heard anything bad from any of them
I guess it's just my personal preference to chose in the middle or a bit to the thin side. For one, VW recommended a multi-grade 50 as the thickest oil possible when a multigrade 40 or straight 30 would work the same. Technically a multigrade 30 should be the same viscosity at running temps as straight 30. Of course then there's that 10W-30 or thinner SN oil to watch out for. One thing I found interesting is that my 2001 Chevy astro has a 0W/5W/10W-30 recomendation in the owner's manual. But when you look at recomended oils outside the USA it recommends anything from 0W-20 to 25W-50 depending on the ambient temps! But after 165,000 miles I don't see where the 5W-30 it's used all it's life did any damage to it. My 1985 Golf has a list that's nearly identical to the old AC VW lists too. All this has lead me to my own conclusions based on my pure guess.
But still, if you get good oil pressure with whatever-30, then why use 40 or 50? I guess in my mind it's kind of like weather that's warm enough to turn over fine with 10W-xx doesn't need 0W oil. Not that 0W or xx-50 is the end of the road, but why go right to the limit instead of somewhere in the middle unless your circumstances truely merit the limit, like artic temps or worn bearings. |
Did you ever try pouring a 5w40 or 5w50 oil out of a bottle, say at 0°F? These are quite obviously thin oils, yet people do backflips worrying about them being too thick. This logic doesn't make a lot of sense to me. One would be just as justified to equate them with a 5wt oil as to equate them with a 40 or 50wt oil, yet many refer to them as if they were straight weight 40 or 50wt oils which they are not.
For myself I consider a 5w40 to be a middle of the road oil and a 5w50 to be not be far from it..
| Quote: |
| For one, VW recommended a multi-grade 50 as the thickest oil possible when a multigrade 40 or straight 30 would work the same. |
This kind of statement is just what I am talking about. It is quite meaningless and not the tiniest bit more accurate than claiming that "VW recommended a multi-grade 20W as the thickest oil possible when a multigrade 15W or straight 30 would work the same." |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| EverettB wrote: |
My old '87 16V GTI hit 250F according to the onboard computer a few times in the AZ summer when I was on the freeway.
Nothing blew up, although I did concern me until I saw that too since I knew the air-cooled engine max is 250F. |
250*F is the absolute max oil temp for any car using any brand of oil in any engine, not just aircooled engines.
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