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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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 Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| oprn wrote: |
I bought a used tractor once from a "Recreational" oil changer. Pulled the dipstick and it was dark but not bad, started ok so I pulled the valve cover to adjust the valve lash and wow! There was gray sludge every where! Pulled the oil plug and nothing came out! Down came the pan and there was 4 - 5" of muddy gunk in the pan! There was even tracks across the gunk where the rods were clearing a path! |
All engines used to look this way inside no matter how often you changed the oil, especially if you were a smart cookie and ran "Ethyl" gasoline. Lead from the gas ended up filling the oil pan and rocker boxes and would also clog the oil galleys. On Chevy six cylinder engines it wasn't unusual for the tube that fed the rocker shaft to clog in only 20K miles causing the rocker arm bushing to wear against the shaft. I had a Toyota FJ40 with Toyota's copy of the GMC/Chevy engine that had suffered this fate due to the previous owner running high octane leaded fuel in it. Its rocker shafts were 100% full of lead sludge at less than 40K miles. By running the improved (but hated by many) low lead and later unleaded fuel this problem never recurred even with many times that mileage being put on the very same engine
You can thank the EPA for saving engines from this fate for the last 40+ years and thus making way for today's much higher output engines that could not have existed in the days when engines filled with sludge. |
Leaded gas eh? New one on me. Can't confirm or deny that claim.
Pretty sure they weren't using premium leaded in a tractor that had a CR of 5/1 especially if they were too cheap to change the oil...
Last edited by oprn on Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| oprn wrote: |
| Leaded gas eh? New one on me. Can't confirm or deny that claim. |
You will not find much info online about this as it was common enough back in the day that no one took pictures to document it. I do have an article from around 1945 on the "proper" way to get oil to the rockers on a Chevy engine by running a copper line external the the engine block and feeding it back to the rockers via a hole cut in the valve cover. You will find a few references online to some aircraft engine building up lead sludge but that is about it. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26787
Location: Colorado Springs
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:39 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| oprn wrote: |
Leaded gas eh? New one on me. Can't confirm or deny that claim.
Pretty sure they weren't using premium leaded in a tractor that had a CR of 5/1 especially if they were too cheap to change the oil... |
Most all gasoline had lead in it at one time, but premium had more. If you wanted lead free gas you had to buy white gas. An engine running regular leaded gas would build up deposits, but just not as fast as one running leaded premium. |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:42 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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But Glen! You saw it on the "net" so it's true!
OK, Wildthings I did a little follow up of my own with a fellow I know very well who is an air craft maintainance engineer on this leaded fuel issue being the cause of sludge in engines. No such thing! They deal with high test leaded gas every day - that put some of your other oil change ideas into the highly questionable file in my mind too.
So- have a good day! Merv |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| oprn wrote: |
But Glen! You saw it on the "net" so it's true!
OK, Wildthings I did a little follow up of my own with a fellow I know very well who is an air craft maintainance engineer on this leaded fuel issue being the cause of sludge in engines. No such thing! They deal with high test leaded gas every day - that put some of your other oil change ideas into the highly questionable file in my mind too.
So- have a good day! Merv |
How long are those aircraft engines being run between teardown verse how long was a tractor engine run between teardown, and how much lead is being used in aircraft engines today verses how much lead was being used in high test in the 1960's? What other additives are going into Avgas today that were not being added to leaded fuel 50 years ago to control lead deposits.
Sorry but I have pulled down many engines from 1970 and earlier that had crankcases and rocker boxes full on heavy gray deposits, one engine in particular had such a high level of deposits that there was almost no room for oil in the oil pan, just a funnel shaped depression in the deposits around the oil pump. Other engines had rocker boxes that were completely full of lead deposits so that when the covers were removed there was a lump of deposits the exact shape of the valve covers.
One almost doesn't see this in engines any more, the last engine I saw with this kind of deposit was back in 1997-98 on an engine built in the early 1960's that I have good reasons to believe had never been torn down previously.
Read up on Amoco White Gas, the sales info can still be found on the web. One of Amoco's claims was that it kept the engines cleaner thus prolonging engine life because it lacked lead. FWIW, I think that getting the lead out of gasoline was one the greatest things that has been done to promote engine longevity in my life time, another is the requirement that engines have a PCV system. The contributions of both are greatly under appreciated and often still riled against by automotive mechanics and machinist. |
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Das67bus
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2008
Posts: 242
Location: Prescott, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| gingergypsy wrote: |
| rockerarm wrote: |
What is your application that you believe you need such a "rich" oil?
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I got oil light with straight 30 and vr1 10w-30, but when I tried 20w-50 vr1 I did not get oil light. However many people say this is TOO thick so I was going to try 10w40 which I'm pretty sure will be sufficient. Essentially my engine has told me what it needs and it doesn't want 10w-30 |
Brad Penn makes a great zinc/phosphorous level multi-grade oil in 10-30, 10-40, 15-40, 20-50. One of these should fit your needs.
http://www.amref.com/Media/Files/bp_pb/7126_50_44_58_19_BP_PG1_Multigrade_HP_Oils_PB.pdf
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2008/02/performance-oils-and-additives-got-zinc/
I run BP and have had good results.
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Willems
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2016
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:28 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Is it necesary to use a high ZDDP oil if your running a new Webcam camshaft + new lifters? I'm currently running oil with 900ppm Zinc in it. |
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yamaducci
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Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2335
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Willems wrote: |
| Is it necesary to use a high ZDDP oil if your running a new Webcam camshaft + new lifters? I'm currently running oil with 900ppm Zinc in it. |
Yes. All flat tappet cams. You should be up around 1100-1200ppm.
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rockerarm
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Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| Willems wrote: |
| Is it necesary to use a high ZDDP oil if your running a new Webcam camshaft + new lifters? I'm currently running oil with 900ppm Zinc in it. |
Hi. Yes, most will believe the 900ppm is too low. When I built my type 1 with a basic WebCams cam they wanted me to use the Brad Penn 30wt. Couldn't find it in the Los Angeles area and Web ok'd me to use the Rotella 30wt. Been over 5 years now. You don't need more than what Yamaducci stated. Too much ZDDP causes additional issues. Depending on where you are at you should have plenty of choices.
Good luck, Bill. |
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Willems
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2016
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| rockerarm wrote: |
| Willems wrote: |
| Is it necesary to use a high ZDDP oil if your running a new Webcam camshaft + new lifters? I'm currently running oil with 900ppm Zinc in it. |
Hi. Yes, most will believe the 900ppm is too low. When I built my type 1 with a basic WebCams cam they wanted me to use the Brad Penn 30wt. Couldn't find it in the Los Angeles area and Web ok'd me to use the Rotella 30wt. Been over 5 years now. You don't need more than what Yamaducci stated. Too much ZDDP causes additional issues. Depending on where you are at you should have plenty of choices.
Good luck, Bill. |
Millers oils 20w50 classic oil has 1050ppm ZDDP. I don't find oil with more ZDDP in it around here (belgium). The valvoline VR1 racing oil is also available here but they don't want to tell me the exact percentage of ZDDP.
I asume its 'safe' to drive with the millers classic oil? |
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rockerarm
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Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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That Millers oil is probably sufficient for your needs. I believe I read somewhere that an optimal level for the flat tappet engines that aren't running super heavy valve springs would be approx. 1100-1200.
The Valvoline VR1 is a very respected oil within the air-cooled VW and Porsche crowd. You can look at www.bobistheoilguy.com for the VR1 breakdown and/or write to Valvoline directly. I wonder if the Valvoline oils differ between the states here and Europe?
Bill. |
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wcfvw69 
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I'm now running Valvoline racing oil in all my bugs. I can't recall the specs but when I looked it up, it's perfect for our air cooled VW's.
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6609
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I looked up VR1 locally and it says 'Non California'.
It's cheaper to get it off Amazon when you have prime. |
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rockerarm
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Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| kawfee wrote: |
I looked up VR1 locally and it says 'Non California'.
It's cheaper to get it off Amazon when you have prime. |
Yeah, that should change soon. Apparently, a law was passed in Calif outlawing older obsolete oils from sales. So, Valvoline was forced to remove from shelves and is now complete with relabeling the containers. Calif Napa's have some in stock and can order as needed, I've been told.
I read that Amazon wouldn't ship to Calif because of this law.
Weed is legal in Calif but VR1 wasn't?  |
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rrcade
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Joined: May 29, 2010
Posts: 735
Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I have been using and always recommend a good brand 20W/50 Mineral based oil for all of my engines that I own and also build.-Rod Penrose Racing
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6609
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| I ordered me up some VR1. It said not to use it in street cars but I am assuming this is meant for the catalytic converters. |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6609
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| rockerarm wrote: |
I read that Amazon wouldn't ship to Calif because of this law.
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I thought you might enjoy this. It is shipped by Valvoline from CA. It is then shipped to Amazon in CA.
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| kawfee wrote: |
| rockerarm wrote: |
I read that Amazon wouldn't ship to Calif because of this law.
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I thought you might enjoy this. It is shipped by Valvoline from CA. It is then shipped to Amazon in CA.
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Yes, thanks, I do enjoy that. I know of those places.
Bill. |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6609
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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| I think my Beetle really likes that VR1. It's purrrrrs. |
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