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vgajames
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Joined: June 13, 2002
Posts: 805
Location: Texas
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vgajames
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2002
Posts: 805
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Here's some photos of a really old flyer i have on them...
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juki48
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2007
Posts: 602
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| You may have to dig deeper, like Brasil not TN....OR you may send them to a lab to actually have them tested. |
If anybody would like to have some samples tested I can give them to our metallography lab here at work. they would have to be sectioned so obviously some dead pistons would do the job. |
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vgajames
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2002
Posts: 805
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Mahle CIMA Piston Kits NOT Forged they are CAST |
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| kekonaiii wrote: |
| ...I have been getting TONS of e-mail from folks asking WHY there are other vendors selling FORGED pistons cheaper then our Forged kits and JE Kits as well as Wiseco Kits.. ...Forged pistons cost alot of money to make and there is NO WAY to make a FORGED Piston and them put them in a set of cylinders and sell them for 180.00....... |
Above edited down to some of his key points...
How can Mahle sell "Forged" pistons for $180?
Now that is funny. Who would ever think ten years ago you could by a Chinese crankshaft that is "forged" for $159...Its supply and demand folks.
Also from Mahle Inc.
..With 7 locations, MAHLE now has a production capacity of 18 million pistons and is one of the largest suppliers in this sector on the most dynamic growth market.
And anyone with any long time engine building experience "can" tell that the Mahle(forged) is a Forged piston. |
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MMS
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Joined: May 03, 2007
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: MAHLE's comments |
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If I may, I'd like to help clear up a couple of points about the Mahle pistons. I am the same engineer who has been quoted above. James' (vgajames) copy from the previous posts with the explanation of the Mahle forging or casting codes in the parts pretty well sums up how to tell which parts are forged or cast. The VW kits that Mahle imports to the US are a mixture of both. I don't have access to the complete list of everything that they bring in, however as I mentioned, we can easily check specific part numbers for you if there is a question.
The reps you may have talked to at the SEMA show (or other similar shows) are typically salesmen. I don't think they intentionally intend to mislead anyone, but its rare that you'll find one who has in-depth technical knowledge about all their products, especially off the top of their head.
The pistons are manufactured in Brazil, but the TN location was the central office in the US. Even if you were able to get a tech question sent directly to Brazil, they would forward it back to the US office to respond to their local market. (It doesn't mean that we don't share information internally, they just prefer to keep the customer interaction local because of language differences, etc).
Typically, you can easily identify a forged vs cast part by examining the undercrown. However, don't be fooled by the surface finish. Depending on how the raw forgings are processed after the heat treatment can have a huge effect on how they look. A heavily sand-blasted part will have a surface finish that very closely resembles a cast part. |
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mharney
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Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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kekonaiii
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2002
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Mahle CIMA Piston Kits NOT Forged they are CAST |
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| vgajames wrote: |
| kekonaiii wrote: |
| ...I have been getting TONS of e-mail from folks asking WHY there are other vendors selling FORGED pistons cheaper then our Forged kits and JE Kits as well as Wiseco Kits.. ...Forged pistons cost alot of money to make and there is NO WAY to make a FORGED Piston and them put them in a set of cylinders and sell them for 180.00....... |
Above edited down to some of his key points...
How can Mahle sell "Forged" pistons for $180?
Now that is funny. Who would ever think ten years ago you could by a Chinese crankshaft that is "forged" for $159...Its supply and demand folks.
Also from Mahle Inc.
..With 7 locations, MAHLE now has a production capacity of 18 million pistons and is one of the largest suppliers in this sector on the most dynamic growth market.
And anyone with any long time engine building experience "can" tell that the Mahle(forged) is a Forged piston. |
Good Point! BUT you are missing the other point that they are not making a Forged piston and selling it for 180.00, that is basically a whole kit. The wholessale on a Mahle is around 150-180. Now you are getting the cylinders too How much do you think it cost to make the cylinders? Now subtract that (cylinder Manufacture) from the whole price of 150-180. Remember that you still have the cost of four wrist pins and 8 clips and a set of RINGS and the box they came in also the custom FEE and the Shipping Fee (from brasil to USA) How much after you pay for all these things do you really have for the Piston itself...?
Then you have to remember that the 150-190 is not the Mahle price. How much does Mahle have to sell the kit for to make a profit. Now you have come way down on manufacturing cost.
So your point is close, but you did not factor in all of the other things. A crank will consist of Machine work 8 Dowels and 4 oil galley plugs plus ship and custom fees.
So comparing the two is not fair..UNLESS you compare just the piston iteself.
I have manufacturing background and I know what it cost to make items and factor in the cost of metal and blah blah blah there really is not a cost effective way to make a WHOLE Forrged kit and put it out on the market for a profit for the price that MAHLE wholesales them to IAP, EMPI, CB, and all the others for. Unless of course they are doing a process that can be close to be able to call it Forge but not being a true forge..
It goes deeper then just a phone call or a letter or e-mail. Once you get behind the scenes of manufacturing you can understand what I am saying, but until then you are just scratching the surface.....
Maybe I have over stepped myself and I can admit to a mistake. I should not of been so direct, but I figured that I didn't want to go through the whole explination. I have just come to the point . Here is the expanation. I should not have made a harsh claim and should have put it this way from the beginning.
We have taken apart just about every BRAND Piston made (That Mattered) to evaluate the content of the piston. In every case we did the same to all the Pistons.
Rockwel, Cut, Stress, Compression, Crack, Melt, and a few other things. I don't have the time to go through every single process and try to show the main point quikly.
JE (Claimed Forged)
Venolia (Claimed Forged)
ROSS (Claimed Forged)
CP (Claimed Forged)
Wiseco (Claimed Forged)
AA PEFOREMANCE (Cast)
AA PERFORMANCE (Claimed Forged)
MAHLE (Cast)
MAHLE (Claimed Forged)
COFAP (Cast)
The finding were as followed simple answers of what the findings seemed to be.
JE (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge although I believe ROSS makes the forging and then JE does the machine work
Venolia (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge I believe they make thier own
ROSS (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge and they make thier own Piston
CP (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge although I believe Ross or another company makes the Forging for CP
Wiseco (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge although came out softer then every single one of the True Forged Pistons listed.
AA PEFOREMANCE (Cast)
Hyperutechtic
AA PERFORMANCE (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge We have a company forge our Piston and we supply our own metal. Then our own factory machines them.
MAHLE (Cast)
showed the likeness of Cast and hardness was close to the same as the Hyperutechtic.
MAHLE (Claimed Forged)
Showed the likeness of cast although it looked more like the part of forged until the piston was mutalated in the process They make thier own..
COFAP (Cast)
Cast and softest of All the above mentioned in this test.
This take time to sit here and type things out. I was trying to inform and sad that I was accused of something other then that. For those of you that know me know my morals and integrty (sp) the I would not try to bash another company to make a buck. I need to get to work now see ya later... |
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kekonaiii
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Joined: December 18, 2002
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Somehow some always trys to make a circus and sway from the subject....
I really did not want to post the ridiculous picture so you it's the one above with the popcorn..  |
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cbr900racer
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2005
Posts: 1360
Location: middle tennessee
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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hey, where in TN is Mahle located? I need a p/c set for a topend rebuild on my "get me by" engine for my bus.
_________________
71 Bay (1776 in process)
94 Sonoma
98 Suburban (bike hauler)
97 Blazer
07 Nitro
94 CBR900RR (runs 5.70s 1/8 mile) |
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vgajames
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2002
Posts: 805
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Well MMS above is Eric Grilliot MAHLE Motorsports, Inc. He emailed me some pictures but they are really big and for somereason i can't save them to My Pictures file to post on thesamba.I believe Koni assumes that the sandblast appearing inner surface on the Forged Mahle appears to look like a Cast piston so he just assumes it is Cast.Thats just the way Mahle makes them.They are not shinney insde like someothers and as Mr. Grilliot posted they are Forged.
Maybe just best not to post something as fact on a forum where others in the field know more about the subject unless your absolutely positive about the facts.  |
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mharney
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| kekonaiii wrote: |
Somehow some always trys to make a circus and sway from the subject....
I really did not want to post the ridiculous picture so you it's the one above with the popcorn.. |
It's for the show! |
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vgajames
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2002
Posts: 805
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Mahle CIMA Piston Kits NOT Forged they are CAST |
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| kekonaiii wrote: |
| vgajames wrote: |
| kekonaiii wrote: |
| ...I have been getting TONS of e-mail from folks asking WHY there are other vendors selling FORGED pistons cheaper then our Forged kits and JE Kits as well as Wiseco Kits.. ...Forged pistons cost alot of money to make and there is NO WAY to make a FORGED Piston and them put them in a set of cylinders and sell them for 180.00....... |
Above edited down to some of his key points...
How can Mahle sell "Forged" pistons for $180?
Now that is funny. Who would ever think ten years ago you could by a Chinese crankshaft that is "forged" for $159...Its supply and demand folks.
Also from Mahle Inc.
..With 7 locations, MAHLE now has a production capacity of 18 million pistons and is one of the largest suppliers in this sector on the most dynamic growth market.
And anyone with any long time engine building experience "can" tell that the Mahle(forged) is a Forged piston. |
Good Point! BUT you are missing the other point that they are not making a Forged piston and selling it for 180.00, that is basically a whole kit. The wholessale on a Mahle is around 150-180. Now you are getting the cylinders too How much do you think it cost to make the cylinders? Now subtract that (cylinder Manufacture) from the whole price of 150-180. Remember that you still have the cost of four wrist pins and 8 clips and a set of RINGS and the box they came in also the custom FEE and the Shipping Fee (from brasil to USA) How much after you pay for all these things do you really have for the Piston itself...?
Then you have to remember that the 150-190 is not the Mahle price. How much does Mahle have to sell the kit for to make a profit. Now you have come way down on manufacturing cost.
So your point is close, but you did not factor in all of the other things. A crank will consist of Machine work 8 Dowels and 4 oil galley plugs plus ship and custom fees.
So comparing the two is not fair..UNLESS you compare just the piston iteself.
I have manufacturing background and I know what it cost to make items and factor in the cost of metal and blah blah blah there really is not a cost effective way to make a WHOLE Forrged kit and put it out on the market for a profit for the price that MAHLE wholesales them to IAP, EMPI, CB, and all the others for. Unless of course they are doing a process that can be close to be able to call it Forge but not being a true forge..
It goes deeper then just a phone call or a letter or e-mail. Once you get behind the scenes of manufacturing you can understand what I am saying, but until then you are just scratching the surface.....
Maybe I have over stepped myself and I can admit to a mistake. I should not of been so direct, but I figured that I didn't want to go through the whole explination. I have just come to the point . Here is the expanation. I should not have made a harsh claim and should have put it this way from the beginning.
We have taken apart just about every BRAND Piston made (That Mattered) to evaluate the content of the piston. In every case we did the same to all the Pistons.
Rockwel, Cut, Stress, Compression, Crack, Melt, and a few other things. I don't have the time to go through every single process and try to show the main point quikly.
JE (Claimed Forged)
Venolia (Claimed Forged)
ROSS (Claimed Forged)
CP (Claimed Forged)
Wiseco (Claimed Forged)
AA PEFOREMANCE (Cast)
AA PERFORMANCE (Claimed Forged)
MAHLE (Cast)
MAHLE (Claimed Forged)
COFAP (Cast)
The finding were as followed simple answers of what the findings seemed to be.
JE (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge although I believe ROSS makes the forging and then JE does the machine work
Venolia (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge I believe they make thier own
ROSS (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge and they make thier own Piston
CP (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge although I believe Ross or another company makes the Forging for CP
Wiseco (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge although came out softer then every single one of the True Forged Pistons listed.
AA PEFOREMANCE (Cast)
Hyperutechtic
AA PERFORMANCE (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge We have a company forge our Piston and we supply our own metal. Then our own factory machines them.
MAHLE (Cast)
showed the likeness of Cast and hardness was close to the same as the Hyperutechtic.
MAHLE (Claimed Forged)
Showed the likeness of cast although it looked more like the part of forged until the piston was mutalated in the process They make thier own..
COFAP (Cast)
Cast and softest of All the above mentioned in this test.
This take time to sit here and type things out. I was trying to inform and sad that I was accused of something other then that. For those of you that know me know my morals and integrty (sp) the I would not try to bash another company to make a buck. I need to get to work now see ya later... |
Whew thats alot of typeing...
I will comment on the Bold Highlighted above...
Maybe when ya get to the 18 million pistons manufactured per year and over 37,000 employees the AA price can come down.And you would be surprised how much IAP makes on one set of P&Ls (Not Very Much)..its Quantity they sell..
Boat loads of them they sell. [/b]
Last edited by vgajames on Thu May 03, 2007 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kekonaiii
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2002
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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vgajames
You are in LA LA land and not worth the effort, but thanks for your opinion.. |
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| kekonaiii wrote: |
vgajames
You are in LA LA land and not worth the effort, but thanks for your opinion.. |
he's got a point...i can't make a cheeseburger at home for what i can buy one for off a value menu.... same reasons...
_________________
| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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grimace007
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2006
Posts: 2673
Location: swampville, florida
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| bugninva wrote: |
| kekonaiii wrote: |
vgajames
You are in LA LA land and not worth the effort, but thanks for your opinion.. |
he's got a point...i can't make a cheeseburger at home for what i can buy one for off a value menu.... same reasons... |
and for those dollar menu cheesburgers quality arent as good as a homemade cheeseburger thats a few bucks more.
_________________
Brian
68 sedan
Dallas Air Coolers
| perrib wrote: |
Hey It is The Samba where well thought out rational answers can take a while and getting side tracked is normal. I was just lucky this time.  |
| cr@M wrote: |
No one has any personal responsibility these days. This country is sue happy. Intelligence is no longer a requirement, just an accessory. |
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MURZI
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005
Posts: 5063
Location: Madisonville, La
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Man, I wish I was an attorney....we could settle this case out of court and I could make BIG MONEY....Slander or false advertising----somebody has a case 
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62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| grimace007 wrote: |
| bugninva wrote: |
| kekonaiii wrote: |
vgajames
You are in LA LA land and not worth the effort, but thanks for your opinion.. |
he's got a point...i can't make a cheeseburger at home for what i can buy one for off a value menu.... same reasons... |
and for those dollar menu cheesburgers quality arent as good as a homemade cheeseburger thats a few bucks more. |
and that "few dollars" would mean 4x the price? maybe folks should tell it like it is, if you want "better" pay more...but if you want a proven adequate product it is available.
_________________
| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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bugnut68
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2003
Posts: 4180
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm just glad this hasn't made its way to the rants...carry on, fellas. |
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vgajames
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2002
Posts: 805
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| bugnut68 wrote: |
| I'm just glad this hasn't made its way to the rants...carry on, fellas. |
Ha Ha! I am done with it and i think i have made a good case.I have been working on Air-Cooled since 1970 and a lot of things have changed espectially the Air-Cooled Market.For its purpose the "Forged" Mahle is a great piston.As far as all out performance i never shopped around for cheaper and went with the best of everything in my money pits i have had in my lifetime so far.(Berg,Pauter,Scat,Wiseco,J&E,CB Etc)
And i would like to add that i have said nothing bad about AA pistons..i have never seen one other then pictures..Just get ticked off when someone spreads misinformation about someone elses products without independent factual..well fact!
To each his own. |
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kekonaiii
Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2002
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| vgajames wrote: |
| bugnut68 wrote: |
| I'm just glad this hasn't made its way to the rants...carry on, fellas. |
Ha Ha! I am done with it and i think i have made a good case.I have been working on Air-Cooled since 1970 and a lot of things have changed espectially the Air-Cooled Market.For its purpose the "Forged" Mahle is a great piston.As far as all out performance i never shopped around for cheaper and went with the best of everything in my money pits i have had in my lifetime so far.(Berg,Pauter,Scat,Wiseco,J&E,CB Etc)
And i would like to add that i have said nothing bad about AA pistons..i have never seen one other then pictures..Just get ticked off when someone spreads misinformation about someone elses products without independent factual..well fact!
To each his own. |
All your facts are above read it. I have not seen you do any testing!!! |
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