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Ace Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2003 Posts: 1903
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: |
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If This rockwell testing is greatly influenced by the raw materials. We know there will be a variance there. you've done a cross section, your grain flow should tell you everything you want to know when checking for cast or forged. |
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bugnut68 Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2003 Posts: 4180 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: |
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kekonaiii wrote: |
vgajames wrote: |
bugnut68 wrote: |
I'm just glad this hasn't made its way to the rants...carry on, fellas. |
Ha Ha! I am done with it and i think i have made a good case.I have been working on Air-Cooled since 1970 and a lot of things have changed espectially the Air-Cooled Market.For its purpose the "Forged" Mahle is a great piston.As far as all out performance i never shopped around for cheaper and went with the best of everything in my money pits i have had in my lifetime so far.(Berg,Pauter,Scat,Wiseco,J&E,CB Etc)
And i would like to add that i have said nothing bad about AA pistons..i have never seen one other then pictures..Just get ticked off when someone spreads misinformation about someone elses products without independent factual..well fact!
To each his own. |
All your facts are above read it. I have not seen you do any testing!!! |
No offense, Kona, but what exactly is involved in the testing? All you've said here, to paraphrase, is 'we've done tests, and this is what we found,' but there's no specific data or details as to what the testing is.
By no means am I belittling, but am legitimately curious as to what backs up the assertion that Mahle's forged pistons are not truly forged? |
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kekonaiii Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2002 Posts: 406
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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If you make something and it is really good and strong and seem as if it could be something but it is not. But you call it that anyway and it works well enough to stay in a safe zone of not getting many complaints.
On the norm a cast piston can stand up to a high performance motor it has happened before and it happpens now. There are factors that affect the strength of it holding up. Compression, Turbo, NOS and a few others. Our own CAST piston is running in a few motors I know personally and holding up. I told them that I don't recommend it, but money was the issue at the time and maybe other reasons as well.
Point is our Cast pistons are very strong and look just like forged for those of you that own some could not tell if they were forged or not.
Forged piston are so beautiful especially when you put them up to the buff wheel the they do NOT deserve the have media blasted backs!!!
Last edited by kekonaiii on Sun May 06, 2007 2:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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kekonaiii Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2002 Posts: 406
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
No offense, Kona, but what exactly is involved in the testing? All you've said here, to paraphrase, is 'we've done tests, and this is what we found,' but there's no specific data or details as to what the testing is.
By no means am I belittling, but am legitimately curious as to what backs up the assertion that Mahle's forged pistons are not truly forged? |
I had listed this on page two.
One of the simplest was cracking it and seeing what they all looked like. Mahle looked exactly like all the cast pistons and didn't not look anything like the others that were cracked.
I have already gotten calls from many other engine builders that completly agree with me, but they just don't want to get involved with the way things work on this site. I don't take offense to anyones opinion as long as they are on the subject of what we are talking about and not here to make any type of cut downs.
I am sure there is not one person here that disagrees (on the word of someone else and nothing they have done to prove the point) can say they have done ANY type of testing them self. I know I sat there for many hours while I watched and touched and did some of the things myself. To come to the conclusion of what we think. It really does not matter.
One thing to ponder.....The Mahle piston stood up to everything the other CAST pistons stiood up to.. NOW on the other hand the Mahle did not stand up to anything that All the other listed forged pistons stood up to..
It didn't Melt the same
It didn't smash the same
It didn't crush the same
It didnt break the same
It didn't look like any of the other Forged piston on the inside of the section that was cracked.
It didn't rockwel the same..
We have taken apart just about every BRAND Piston made (That Mattered) to evaluate the content of the piston. In every case we did the same to all the Pistons.
Rockwel, Cut, Stress, Compression, Crack, Melt, and a few other things. I don't have the time to go through every single process and try to show the main point quikly.
JE (Claimed Forged)
Venolia (Claimed Forged)
ROSS (Claimed Forged)
CP (Claimed Forged)
Wiseco (Claimed Forged)
AA PEFOREMANCE (Cast)
AA PERFORMANCE (Claimed Forged)
MAHLE (Cast)
MAHLE (Claimed Forged)
COFAP (Cast)
The finding were as followed simple answers of what the findings seemed to be.
JE (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge although I believe ROSS makes the forging and then JE does the machine work
Venolia (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge I believe they make thier own
ROSS (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge and they make thier own Piston
CP (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge although I believe Ross or another company makes the Forging for CP
Wiseco (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge although came out softer then every single one of the True Forged Pistons listed.
AA PEFOREMANCE (Cast)
Hyperutechtic
AA PERFORMANCE (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge We have a company forge our Piston and we supply our own metal. Then our own factory machines them.
MAHLE (Cast)
showed the likeness of Cast and hardness was close to the same as the Hyperutechtic.
MAHLE (Claimed Forged)
Showed the likeness of cast although it looked more like the part of forged until the piston was mutalated in the process They make thier own..
COFAP (Cast)
Cast and softest of All the above mentioned in this test.
This take time to sit here and type things out. I was trying to inform and sad that I was accused of something other then that. For those of you that know me know my morals and integrty (sp) the I would not try to bash another company to make a buck. I need to get to work now see ya later... |
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bugnut68 Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2003 Posts: 4180 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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kekonaiii wrote: |
Quote: |
No offense, Kona, but what exactly is involved in the testing? All you've said here, to paraphrase, is 'we've done tests, and this is what we found,' but there's no specific data or details as to what the testing is.
By no means am I belittling, but am legitimately curious as to what backs up the assertion that Mahle's forged pistons are not truly forged? |
I had listed this on page two.
One of the simplest was cracking it and seeing what they all looked like. Mahle looked exactly like all the cast pistons and didn't not look anything like the others that were cracked.
I have already gotten calls from many other engine builders that completly agree with me, but they just don't want to get involved with the way things work on this site. I don't take offense to anyones opinion as long as they are on the subject of what we are talking about and not here to make any type of cut downs.
I am sure there is not one person here that disagrees (on the word of someone else and nothing they have done to prove the point) can say they have done ANY type of testing them self. I know I sat there for many hours while I watched and touched and did some of the things myself. To come to the conclusion of what we think. It really does not matter.
One thing to ponder.....The Mahle piston stood up to everything the other CAST pistons stiood up to.. NOW on the other hand the Mahle did not stand up to anything that All the other listed forged pistons stood up to..
It didn't Melt the same
It didn't smash the same
It didn't crush the same
It didnt break the same
It didn't look like any of the other Forged piston on the inside of the section that was cracked.
It didn't rockwel the same..
We have taken apart just about every BRAND Piston made (That Mattered) to evaluate the content of the piston. In every case we did the same to all the Pistons.
Rockwel, Cut, Stress, Compression, Crack, Melt, and a few other things. I don't have the time to go through every single process and try to show the main point quikly.
JE (Claimed Forged)
Venolia (Claimed Forged)
ROSS (Claimed Forged)
CP (Claimed Forged)
Wiseco (Claimed Forged)
AA PEFOREMANCE (Cast)
AA PERFORMANCE (Claimed Forged)
MAHLE (Cast)
MAHLE (Claimed Forged)
COFAP (Cast)
The finding were as followed simple answers of what the findings seemed to be.
JE (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge although I believe ROSS makes the forging and then JE does the machine work
Venolia (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge I believe they make thier own
ROSS (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge and they make thier own Piston
CP (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge although I believe Ross or another company makes the Forging for CP
Wiseco (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge although came out softer then every single one of the True Forged Pistons listed.
AA PEFOREMANCE (Cast)
Hyperutechtic
AA PERFORMANCE (Claimed Forged)
everything pointed to actual true forge We have a company forge our Piston and we supply our own metal. Then our own factory machines them.
MAHLE (Cast)
showed the likeness of Cast and hardness was close to the same as the Hyperutechtic.
MAHLE (Claimed Forged)
Showed the likeness of cast although it looked more like the part of forged until the piston was mutalated in the process They make thier own..
COFAP (Cast)
Cast and softest of All the above mentioned in this test.
This take time to sit here and type things out. I was trying to inform and sad that I was accused of something other then that. For those of you that know me know my morals and integrty (sp) the I would not try to bash another company to make a buck. I need to get to work now see ya later... |
Well, as EMPI used to say, "Sorry 'bout that!" I didn't read the entire post in its entirety, my bad on that one...
Thanks for the info, though, regardless. |
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kekonaiii Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2002 Posts: 406
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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quote]
Well, as EMPI used to say, "Sorry 'bout that!" I didn't read the entire post in its entirety, my bad on that one...
Thanks for the info, though, regardless. [/quote]
No Problem bruddah, Aloha Ka Ko |
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neil68 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007 Posts: 3440 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 9:55 pm Post subject: Mahle pistons |
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Dear Sir,
How are you doing? Hope everything is fine.
Thanks for your interest on our products as well as the processes involving
the production of them.
1- Mahle-Cima
First of all, let me explain you about the name "Mahle-Cima".
This is the old name of the brazilian plant. Their actual name is Mahle
Metal Leve S.A.
They are responsible for the production of the VW (air cooled and water
cooled) products (pistons, liners, bearings, etc).
2- VW pistons
You will find attached an Excel file with the VW kits available to the air
cooled engines in US today.
(See attached file: Air_cooled_kits.xls)
Some of them are those that we know by Standard kits and another are the
Big Bore kits.
All the Standard kits are casted.
Two of the Big Bore kits are casted, but all the rest are forged. These
forged pistons are produced really rusing the normal process of forging
(Forged Aluminum).
Maybe who is saying that they are not forged actually is trying to say that
they are not Forged Iron. Correct! They are not Forged Iron, but they are
Forged (really forged!!) Aluminum.
Some liners (or cylinders) are spun cast. But it's not true to these VW
liners also. All these air cooled liners (cylinders) are Cast Iron liners.
Hope that everything is clear. In case you have doubts or more interest in
some another information, please let us know and we will be glad to help
you.
Kind regards,
Enrison Ladeia
MAHLE, INC - Aftermarket Engineering
Phone: ++ 1 423 318 3711 Fax: ++ 1 423 318 3190
Toll Free: 877 384 5086
E-mail: [email protected] |
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kekonaiii Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2002 Posts: 406
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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I believe this was already posted... |
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neil68 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007 Posts: 3440 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: Yes, |
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So which part don't you believe, then? |
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kekonaiii Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2002 Posts: 406
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: Yes, |
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neil68 wrote: |
So which part don't you believe, then? |
I don't believe that what they call forged is really a true forge. I stated all my reasons in my earlier post.
You know our CAST pistons have stood up to Turbos and NOS and they look better then the Mahles (my opinion and what others have told me) and we could call them forged too. Funny thing is that when we put the Claimed Forged Mahle up to the other forged they didn't stand up, BUT everything done to them pointed to Cast.. Now don't get me wrong.. Mahles are one hell of a piston and have been proven to work well, but they just don't seem to be what is claimed.
I AM ONLY REPORTING WHAT WE DID AND HOW IT TURNED OUT.. If you don't agree with our finding then that is fine, No Big Deal....
I already apologized for saying it the way I did. That is why I spent much of my time to type it out. So you could see why I said what I said.
I tell you there is NO WAY that Mahle will ever admit What I said to be true. How long and what kind of pressure did the tobacco companies go through. How can I compare that????? Well if they say yes they are cast and not a TRUE Forging. I am pretty sure someone would satr a suit. What do you think???
The pistons are really strong, BUT they are NOTHING in strength compared to JE, ROSS, CP, AA, Wiseco, Venolia they didn't even stand up to the weakest Wiseco pistons. NO Way NO How knowing what I know and seeing what I saw will I ever agree that Mahle is a true forged piston. Unless someone wants to take me on a tour when they are forging them
If anyone else has done any sort of testing on them and can show me they react just like the forged and not the cast then I would like to hear about it.. |
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grimace007 Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2006 Posts: 2673 Location: swampville, florida
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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preach on brother kona! _________________ Brian
68 sedan
Dallas Air Coolers
perrib wrote: |
Hey It is The Samba where well thought out rational answers can take a while and getting side tracked is normal. I was just lucky this time. |
cr@M wrote: |
No one has any personal responsibility these days. This country is sue happy. Intelligence is no longer a requirement, just an accessory. |
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Paul Wilson Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2003 Posts: 608
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: |
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The pistons can be tested for grain flow pattern by a metalurglist. This will determine if they are forged or cast. The grain flow is not the same. If this has not been done, I would back off the claim that they are not forged, at least until you can prove what you are saying.
Paul |
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Al Fodel Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2004 Posts: 71
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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when you get to a certain level of performance, you leave the mahles behind and go to something different. Many have gone to the AA forged. Regardless of cast or forged, the mahles are being left behind. Al |
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kekonaiii Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2002 Posts: 406
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Paul Wilson wrote: |
The pistons can be tested for grain flow pattern by a metalurglist. This will determine if they are forged or cast. The grain flow is not the same. If this has not been done, I would back off the claim that they are not forged, at least until you can prove what you are saying.
Paul |
Ok here is my claim once more...
After testing we have found that the claimed forged Mahle is not consistant with ALL the other claimed forged pistons. They were however consistant with the Cast pistons....There is nothing slanderous about this claim. It is based on facts that we have first hand information (meaning we did our own work) and NOT someone saying it. You could be as SUPRISED as me if you were standing there while all this was taking place..... |
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Paul Wilson Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2003 Posts: 608
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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My only point is having been the aerospace industires for the last 25 years, I know that the one true test that must be done in order to prove out a forging, is grain flow. That alone will determine if the piston is a forging or cast. In a forging the grain direction follows the shape of the item. Cast on the other hand, has a crystalline grain structure. I didn't see where you had conduced this test. If you did so, I apologize. While you may have a valid point of the strength of the piston. Some casting are stronger than some forgings, all depending on the forging and casting process. Not all castings and not all forgings are equal. A forging is all about grain flow, period.
Paul |
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jamestwo Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004 Posts: 2203
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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_________________ hEY, lOOK, i'M WRONG HALF THE TIME, AND THE OTHER HALF i'M NOT SURE WHAT THE HECK i'M TALKING ABOUT. MY POST ARE FOR MY OWN ENTERTAINMENT VALUE ONLY. |
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kekonaiii Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2002 Posts: 406
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Paul Wilson wrote: |
My only point is having been the aerospace industires for the last 25 years, I know that the one true test that must be done in order to prove out a forging, is grain flow. That alone will determine if the piston is a forging or cast. In a forging the grain direction follows the shape of the item. Cast on the other hand, has a crystalline grain structure. I didn't see where you had conduced this test. If you did so, I apologize. While you may have a valid point of the strength of the piston. Some casting are stronger than some forgings, all depending on the forging and casting process. Not all castings and not all forgings are equal. A forging is all about grain flow, period.
Paul |
I am not ashamed to say we just did what we thought could show us something (and it did). We are not metalurgist. BUT we have a little bit of smarts and maybe we will actually call you the next time we decide to pull one apart.. |
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vgajames Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2002 Posts: 805 Location: Texas
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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I thought i was done but have some more input that is interesting...
The following has been supplied to me by Mahle Inc.
"Materials. The most common forged piston alloys in the US are 4032 and 2618. The properties of these materials are significantly different. Comparing various pistons without knowing the specific alloy could lead to the differences he was seeing. For example:
----------------------2618-----------4032---------Mahle cast (typical)
Silicon--------------0.15-0.25% -----11-13%-------11-13%
Tensile Strength----336 N/mm2-----230 N/mm2---200 N/mm2
(at 200° C)
Brinell Hardness-----125-150-----90-125------90-130
HB 2.5/62.5
(I don't have data at hand for melting temperature, but we know there will be a difference between the 2618 and 4032).
I know the Mahle forged pistons are not 2618. There's a high probability the [Mahle] cast and forged pistons are a similar alloy composition so any tests for hardness, melting, etc would have very similar results. The advantage of the forged vs cast, is that you gain tensile strength, fatigue strength, elongation etc. (typically not properties that can easily be measured outside of a materials lab).
The 94P18 forging, used in the K70481 kit, is a "true" forging.
Mr. Fleming does however have some valid points. The Mahle forged VW pistons are not the same as a Wiseco or JE, etc., nor were they intended to be. How the distributors are choosing to market them, could be a whole different story (I don't have any specific knowledge of that either way, but regardless, that's a discussion for Sales, not Engineering). It's unfortunate that all "forged" pistons tend to get lumped together, when we can see that there are clearly differences in the parts themselves and the performance you can expect from them. In my opinion, the real question is not about what's forged or not, but about choosing the right piston for the intended application."
So in a nut shell in my opinion..Mahle Forged replacement pistons which have made many VW performance folks happy for many years fill a need for something stronger then the cast piston..but can not be placed in the same line up with the forged pistons designed specifically for racing such as the JE,Wiseco etc. |
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Ace Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2003 Posts: 1903
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Paul Wilson wrote: |
The pistons can be tested for grain flow pattern by a metalurglist. This will determine if they are forged or cast. The grain flow is not the same. If this has not been done, I would back off the claim that they are not forged, at least until you can prove what you are saying.
Paul |
My Point exactly. Flawed testing gets flawed results. What would Jake Raby do? |
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volksfiend Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2004 Posts: 283 Location: Mo....West of Mexico
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:39 am Post subject: |
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Ace wrote: |
What would Jake Raby do? |
Have a custom set of $$$$$ one off billet type 4 pistons manufactured????? _________________
Chumley wrote: |
I just pissed me off |
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