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capmike
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 11:17 am    Post subject: roll cage fab Reply with quote

any of you guys built your own roll cage? how difficult is it to bend the tubing and get it right? also can i use a cheaper tubing bender such as the one harber frieght sells to bend the tubing? dont want to spend a lot of money on a bender since itll be one use only.
thanks capmike
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joescoolcustoms
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

capmike
I just finished fabbing a roll cage for my fiberglass buggy. It takes a large amount of time to get just right. Make sure you know your angles before bending the pipe.

I bought a Harbour Freight cheapie bender to make some slide rails for a log splitter a few years ago and bent some 2 inch pipe. The first couple bends went great, then they started kinking and flattening out. I looked into purchasing a nice tubing bender, but the wife would not let me mortage the house to get it.

Then came a VW drag tube chassis that I wanted to convert from a torsion tube/spring plate car to a ladder bar/coil over car. I needed to bend pipe. I looked at benders again, they only went up in price, my check book hasn't. The one thing they had in common was a "shoe" that held the pipe in the bend area that kept it from kinking and flattening.

I went back to the harbour Freight cheapie and made the following shoe in the pictures. I place the pipe in the die, put the "shoe" on and bend the pipe, remove the "shoe", (with a brass hammer) and done. The pipe in the picture was of one of the kinked bends, not of the good bends.

You can judge for yourself in the two threads, http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...highlight= and the last few pages of http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1...highlight=

Now, how did I get the measurements? I used the original roll bar for a start point, and then measured my new copied bend to see now much offset the new bender took up when bending from the original center point to the outside of the bend, (think 90 degree bend, with the center marked before bending, to the outside of the bend). I used a cheap angle style protractor, (from harbour freight) to figure what angles to bend, and then two magnetic base angle finders to measure my bend while in the bender. I used my imagination from there.
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The pipe I used was 1 5/8 inch, 0.134 wall, DOM, (drawn over mandral) tubing. This tubing meets all IHRA and NHRA race car spec, (had it for the drag chassis). I do know the thinner the pipe, the more prone to kinking and flattening.

The roll cage for my buggy used almost 40 feet of piping with less than 13 inches of waste. I also used the Harbour Freight "Joint Jigger" to "fish mouth" the tubing joints.
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Yellermanx
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read and understand the link below. The method is simple and works flawlessly. Either get a real tubing bender or have someone else bend your tubing for you.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/bendin_tube/index.html
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mach4
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We tried to do our own roll bar using the HF "kinker" with the following results

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joescoolcustoms
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a little better detail of the "shoe" I made for my HF Kinker. Also, here are two shots of the quality of the bends that it produces. I have purchased professional roll cages from top race car companies that use the top dollar hydraulic mandral benders and their bends were maybe 5% better than these. I have less than $ 100.00 in this tubing bender set up, although, I have about 4 hours fab, welding, figuring, searching for scrap metal and testing in it.
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Completed and welded cage.
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PLEASE NOTE I have about $ 200.00 in this high quality DOM tubing. It is not thin walled conduit, water pipe, gas line pipe or welded seamed tubing. This does make a differance in the final quality of your work.
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capmike
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks guys for the replys,i cant see spending 1000.oo dollars on a tube bender to use once.i wonder if they can be rented? If not i may give the
hf kinker a try with the extra adapter.is it the same size as the pipe u are bending? looks good on your cage.
thanks capmike
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joescoolcustoms
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1 5/8 tubing fits one of the HF Kinker's die perfectly. I got an old leaf spring from I don't know what, heated it cherry red and wrapped it around the 1 5/8 tubing tightly. Cut the leaf spring in a half moon to where it would "cap" the HF die and result in a perfect circle. Drilled a hole through the die. Clamped the leaf spring over the 1 5/8 tubing in the die, put two peices of 1/4 inch thick strap on a bolt, asymbled it all and welded it together.

They way I figured, this HF Kinker was junk anyway, what did I have to loose? I painted this set black, (closest rattle paint can to me) so I could color code the rest of the die and "shoe" sets if this one worked.

Once the tube is bent, it does take a little coaxing to get the bolt back out of the shoe/die. It is cumbersum, but I am not in production. It took three evenings to complete the fabrication in the pictures, about 12 hours total. Remember to only tack the tubing until totally done. I used 3 inch masking tape on some portions to help hold some tubing so I could measure or get back to see how it looked.
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Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone
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JKM
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pipe and Tube are not the same materials. Pipe is measured ID and tube is OD. PIPE benders such as HF are for just that PIPE. the dies are set up for the pipe dimensions not Tube. A 1.5" pipe does not necessairly have the same dimensions as a 1.5" tube. Also a tube bender pulls/bends the tube around the die vs the hf model that forces the ill fitting die into the material.

This is the wrong tool for a extremly important piece of safety equipment, your cage... IMHO.

If cash is a concern, here are plans to build a tube bender http://www.gottrikes.com/HD_Tubebender.htm and for about $350 including a die you got yourself a real tube bender. I have never used it, but have read some favorable reviews on it.

John
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vdubyah73
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was able to mock mine up in pvc pipe and fittings. Paid someone $150 to do the bending, this price included the tubing. I was able to do my own welding, had to make my own fish mouths and cut the legs to length. Ask around locally and find a fabricator/welder to do it for you.

Bill
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Yellermanx
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tubing benders are not as expensive as people make them out to be if you don't get the ultra deluxe hydraulic model. The mechanical one works fine. Plus you will always find something else to make with it. Multiple dies can get expensive. One die set will do anything you need to do for a roll cage. Mine is a JD Squared model 3, I have one die set, 1.5" x 4.5" CLR. I built the engine cage below with it and also every bend on this rail with the only die I have. I would like to have the 5.5" die also.

Bender website http://www.jd2.com/

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Never finished this project.
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joescoolcustoms
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing to remember is mounting the cage to the pan/body. I have witnessed four drag car wrecks and looked at the aftermath of a dozen or so drag car wrecks during my bracket racing days.

I have seen three very well bent and welded cages separate from the body/frame and proceed to beat the snot out of the driver. One wreck at Clay City Dragway next to Lexington, KY occurred when the parachute went under the wheelie bars and then lifted the rear off the ground, cut the timing board telephone pole off at 4 feet, the rear end came to rest in the field, the motor broke away from the transmission and both landed on the track, and he ended up in the middle of the track sitting in the roll cage. I thought he was dead. My friend Steve only suffered bruises and a mild concusion. He built his own cage using a home made bender, (Steve is my machinest and he is very talented). This is an extreme case, but if the cage was not properly anchored and tied in, he could have just as well been dead.

DO NOT mount your cage with 1/4-20 bolts, use good hardware and approiately sized bolts. Bolt through the pan and to a backup plate underneath, (sandwich the pan between the cage mount plate and the plate underneath). Pickup the original structural members if possible, (shock tower, torsion tube). If you cannot get a good, non-flattening bend or cannot afford a proper tubing bender, cannot weld well, cannot find tubing, (no pipe or conduit here), not experienced in fabrication, it would be in your best interest to farm it out to someone/shop who is.

Even if you only use it for street use with a 1300 stock motor, if not properly done/mounted it can come loose in a small acident and smack you upside the head.
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MURZI
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops, wrong pic Laughing Laughing

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Not my idea, Hawkeye Buggies, but a good one. About six-seven bolts down each side held that puppy in. Bolted not to "pan" but 1x2 box tubing.

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sandhopper
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 7:40 pm    Post subject: roll cage Reply with quote

I have that gotrikes bender , bought plans from e bay , spent couple of days welding and drilling , bought dies and a air / hydarulic jack .
it is slow to bend but I love it .
Larry[/img]
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i second the jd squared

We use on @ the shop i work in and we pump out race quality cages quite often with it.

mounting a cage securely in a vw is not easy. in my cage i actually built a sub cage that the two upper cage sections bolt to. Im using half inch bolts through the frame rail that already had a sch 40 pipe welded to it.

Also fitting the cage is very important. A improperly fit cage will do more harm to you in a crash then not having a cage @ all. Well, not in a dune buggy since there isnt any roof but yeah. Leave alot of headroom or always drive with a helmet.



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Elwood
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought and observations on this subject.

1. I love the idea of improvised tools and equipment. Figure theres many ways of doing things and why can't alternatives work.
So been thinking about this alot.

2. I noticed today that inside diameter of a Balljoint beams tubing is the correct diameter to fit perfectly over 1 3/4" Tubing. I have some of this as thats what my cage is being built ou of.

3. A section of a Balljoint beam from say a narrowing job or something would be perfect for making the shoe bracket for the HF bender modification. Nice and thick. Also with a little bit of hammering I imagine it would also work on 1 5/8" or even 1 1/2 " tubing as well.

Just another option for making the shoe. My thoughts are that if a piece of angle iron was welded on top of the shoe and then side gusseted in and the strpa welded to it, that should be plenty strong enough. The way this comes about is I don't have a torch so Wehn I noticed that it just kinda clicked as I remembered reading this a while back.....

So anyone whos considering this and knows of any BJ beams being cut up you now have another option.

My only question on all of this is wouldn't you have to raise the bender up high on a table to make certain bends ?


All this being said I am still considering building the GotTrikes bender and if anyone has the plans for such and wouldn't mind "Sharing" them let me know.

I am just tossing this idea around in my head as possibility. Woult like to see some actual bending pics.

Oh yeah I found this too by the way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWT3N3m4bE4

Seems like he got good results with Sand. So with a shoe and sand it should be a pretty good setup for the price. If you only do this ocassionally I think it's the better deal for those who might only build 2 or 3 cages in your lifetime. More then that or professionally Maybe a better one is needed.
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WilliamA
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,
When Neil and I built the mid-engine car last winter, we bent the entire cage and frame using a harbor freight bender. I modified the bender from box-stock by making shoes to replace the cast rollers on the sides. It works amazingly well. I'll take some pics today and post them tonight. Neil has been making some noise about purchasing a proper tubing bender, but my point is it can be done. We didn't use sand, heat or anything else for the bends. Just stuck the tubing in and bent it.
There are a number of processes that need to be taken into account and the most important is the type of tubing. I'd say on the ends of the scale you have plumbing pipe (not worth much outside of plumbing imho) and exhaust pipe. Schedule 40 pipe is not something I'd like to have to depend on for a cage. It's also extremely heavy per foot compared to DOM or ERW. Exhaust pipe is light, but has no strength and again, I wouldn't want to have to depend on it. Generally speaking, the thinner the tubing, the more difficult it will be to get it to weld properly. Exhaust tubing also generally comes with some sort of galvanized coating, which makes it more difficult to weld and is also poisionous to weld. Be careful. My personal choice is ERW (electrical resistance welding) tubing in 11 gauge. It's relatively heavy compared to DOM or the really good Chrome Moly, but it's inexpensive, strong, welds easily, and looks great. I've never had a problem with seams and have never had to "index" the tubing in the bender so the seams would work.
Keep in mind, if you don't do the math to understand how roll cages and frames work, it won't make any difference what material you use. Take some time to review your basic geometry skills. Think triangles. A bulletproof, mig-welded chromemoly cage bent in a $3,000 bender will collapse like a house of cards if it's not properly braced. Conversely, a properly braced and triangulated cage made from water pipe will save your ass if it's welded and attached well.
Bill
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone pack their tubes with sand as well? It can be a PITA on longer tubes, but a simple tack on cap and I got teh HF condiut bender to work on small angle bends. Remember those are for bending pipe which is measured on the ID. I got the plans from ebay as well, but I'm seeing if I can't get a friend to cast some dies fo me first....
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tossed the idea around of using a pipe bender and finally said the heck with it and bought a tube bender.
I also invested in software for the tube bending. Keeping in mind I have never bent a piece of tube in my life. Got the software figure out, and the bender, then the notcher. It was trying at times and I did screw up a few pieces but was able to use these pieces elsewhere on the buggy.
I also did the flat bar idea (But used angle iron) to sandwich the fiberglass between the frame and cage. The car is SOLID! No creeks or twisting. One front wheel often comes off the ground when going up and over curbs (Suspension is slow to react).
I used 1 5/8ths .120 wall DOM tube and Mig welded.

http://www.2020softwaresolutions.com/bend-tech_ez.html

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Elwood
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The HF pipe bender convert requires the dies to be ground out to fit the O.D. of Tubing.

So the I.D. versus O.D. thing has already been brought up alot.

I am a beleiver in this, especially as a DIY at home and on a budget. Seems like a great alternative to buying a professional machine.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made a almost cost-less top shoe for three of the HF Kinker dies and they work very well on tubing. (2 ", 1 5/8 " and 1 " tubing sizes) I did not need to grind down the HF's dies either, the tubing just fit.

I only use DOM tubing with this HF Kinker and have now done 3 complete cages and a 4th buggy cage. I will be doing another buggy cage for the El Lobo that is next on my project list.

I have never done the sand trick. I guess I was too lazy and it looked time consuming. Then the water thing inside of the tubing = rust from the inside if not completly dry.

From putting the top shoe on to taking it apart, it takes me about 2 minutes to make a 90 degree bend with the HF Kinker. A weekend to build a buggy cage designing from scratch to completly welded.
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Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race

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Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone
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