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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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 Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon engine, in 1972~79 VW 1600 & 17/ |
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This picture, of a 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon, CT-series or CZ-series, air-cooled engine, installed in a British specification, 1974 VW 1800 Type 2 campervan, was originally featured in:
David Eccles, "Peaches & Dream", Volkswagen Camper & Commercial, Issue 5, Winter 2001, pages 6~9.
Note that the photograph has been incorrectly printed, with the left & right-hand sides transposed, which to those knowledgeable about 1972~79 VW Type 2s, would be obvious, from the apparent shape of the engine-bay perimeter and the postions of the spare-wheel well and computer-diagnostics socket!
Also note, the following interesting features:
Cast-in oil-filter mount, with screw-on oil-filter cartridge, identical to those of the 1983~92 VW 19/2100 Vanagon, water-cooled, flat-four engine
Single, central carburettor, with no inlet-manifold, exhaust preheating facility. Instead, the inlet manifold, beneath the carburettor, features a self-regulating, electrically-heated "hedgehog".
Engine cooling-fan housing, similar in concept, to the VW Type 3 & 4 engines, but which in common with the 1980~83 VW 2000 Vanagon engine, supplies air only to the engine cooling system and none to the heating & demisting system.
Alternator-driven, heating & demisting system fan.
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The 1983~92 VW 19/2100 Vanagon, water-cooled, flat-four engine, was a further development of the 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon, CT & CZ-series engine, featuring the same oil-filter mounting. Likewise, the 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon, CT & CZ-series engine, was a further development of the VW Type 1 & 3 engine.
One of the further developments, which was first implemented in the 1983 onward, water-cooled engines, was a more robust crankshaft, with thicker webs, larger main-bearing journals and a flywheel with five-bolt fixing, similar to that of the VW Type 4 engines.
Laurie Pettitt, in Berwickshire, Great Britain, pioneered the upgrading of VW Type 1 style engines and 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon engines, by substituting the 69 mm or 76 mm stroke crankshafts and associated connecting rod & flywheels, from defunct water-cooled engines.
Lawrence Pettitt
Huldie Cottage, Ayton, Eyemouth, Berwickshire, TD14 5RD, UK
Tel: +44 (0) 18907 81664 Mobile: +44 (0) 7977 535161.
http://www.actyerage.com/
Email: [email protected]
E-mail: [email protected]
My reason for replacing my VW 1600 Type 2, AD-series engine (i.e. VW Type 1 style), with a VW Type 4 engine, was the crankshaft-driven cooling fan, proper full-flow oil filtration, greater power & torque, combined with cooler running, owing to wider-spaced cylinder barrels and greater air-flow rate. With hindsight, had the VW Type 4 engine not been a viable option for me, then a water-boxer crankshaft upgraded CT-series or CZ-series engine, would be my next best choice.
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Last edited by NASkeet on Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:30 am; edited 3 times in total |
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renobdarb
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Joined: September 13, 2005
Posts: 878
Location: Eastern Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Huh?
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1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire. |
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TheTominator
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Joined: February 20, 2007
Posts: 898
Location: HICKORY, NC. USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hold the picture up to a mirror and look at in the mirror because it is ass backwards in the supplied photo.
He got an engine from a 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon and put it in his 972~79 VW.
Nice job Nigel. How about some pics of your finished project? How difficult would it be for me to put one of those in my 71 Bay?
_________________
"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" Albert Einstein - 1901
If I can't curse, I can't fix it.
71 Bus
78 HD FXS Lowrider 1200cc
An Oldsmobile for crying out loud. |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon engine, in 1972~79 VW 1600 & 17/ |
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| TheTominator wrote: |
Hold the picture up to a mirror and look at in the mirror because it is ass backwards in the supplied photo.
He got an engine from a 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon and put it in his 1972~79 VW.
Nice job Nigel. How about some pics of your finished project? How difficult would it be for me to put one of those in my 71 Bay? |
I am not sure how difficult it would be to transplant a 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon engine, into a 1968~70 or 1971 VW 1600 Type 2. The engine itself would be the same size as the VW Type 1 style engine, the important issue would be that of sealing around the edge of the engine.
The overall engine-assembly length is greater, owing to the crankshaft mounted fan and the heating & demisting fan, mounted on the end of the alternator shaft. This would also influence what modifications to the engine-bay perimeter, might be needed.
The transplantation of 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon engine, into a 1972~79 VW 1600 & 17/18/2000 Type 2 (a 1974 VW 1800 Type 2 Devon campervan, to be more precise), was not my project. It belongs to Ron Summerfield, in Leicestershire, England, who purchased the vehicle with the CT-series engine, already transplanted, at Vanfest in September 1999. I merely noticed in the following magazine article, that it had been done by someone:
David Eccles, "Peaches & Dream", Volkswagen Camper & Commercial, Issue 5, Winter 2001, pages 6~9.
My own vehicle, is a British specification, 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, into which I am already commited to transplanting, a hybrid, 1911 cc, VW 17/1800 Type 2 & 4 engine (1971 VW 411LE, WO-series engine's bottom end, with modified 1974~74 VW 1800 Type 2 cylinder heads and 96 mm bore, NPR cylinder barrels & flat-crown pistons, etcetera ad nauseum); possibly using the VW 411's Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection system.
VW Type 4 engine windage tray & modified cam gear
The engine bay of my British specification, 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Kombi
Several years ago, whilst I had the fuel tank removed, I modified the removable, sheet-steel, fuel-tank compartment bulkhead (i.e. firewall in USA parlance), by welding onto the back of the seven ribs, a total of nineteen M6 nuts (two each on the two outboard ribs and three nuts each on the remaining five), to facilatate the later fitment of various components and accessories, such as an electonic-ignition control module and parts of a Bosch D-Jetronic or L-Jetronic, electronic fuel-injection system.
With the benefit of hindsight, it might have been better, to have fitted about five M5 nuts (in preference to the larger M6 nuts), to each of the seven ribs, to provided greater choice with regard to brackets and mounting.
The oil-bath air-cleaner mounting platform, associated with the VW 1600 Type 1 style engine, has been cut back (by about 1¼ to 1¾ inches, if I recall correctly!), to facilitate the use of a VW Type 4 style engine, with either twin Solex carburettors or Bosch D-Jetronic, electronic fuel injection, originating from a VW 411/412LE; the latter being the preferred option.
Two M6 screw studs have been brazed to the underside of the air-cleaner platform, to secure the alternator's remote-mounted voltage regulator, which would normally be fastened to the fuel-tank compartment bulkhead.
Note the trial fitting of a VW type 4 engine carcass (i.e. empty crankcase, plus cylinder barrels & heads), with cooling-fan housing, coverplates and part of the Bosch D-Jetronic fuel-injection system.
Home-made GRP and aluminium mounting brackets, for the Bosch fuel-injection pump and fuel filter, located beneath the fuel-tank compartment. The transaxle support bracket and adjacent bodywork, has been modified to accommodate the throttle-cable rerouting, for the fuel-injection system, throttle body.
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Last edited by NASkeet on Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BigLoaf
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Joined: October 05, 2005
Posts: 433
Location: Hacienda Heights, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| I too, am a bit confused by this post. I think some background information would help out. If I'm understanding everything correctly, the 80-83 vanagons from Europe came with a different engine than their American counterparts. Can we get some more info about the CT and CZ series engines? |
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BigLoaf
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Joined: October 05, 2005
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Location: Hacienda Heights, CA
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TheTominator
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Joined: February 20, 2007
Posts: 898
Location: HICKORY, NC. USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Read the tuna post, interesting. Thanks for the clarification and the photos Nigel. I vote that we all start saying "it's British Specification" when we mean, "my bus is nasty clean", lol.
I'm going to have to pull my petrol tank and treat it, I think I might borrow your idea and install potential mounting points as you have. Also, as I value your opinion, (come to think of it, I value all opinions) what do you think of my near complete decision to purchase and install into my 71, the 1914 version on display at the following link?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=441562
Best Regards,
Tom.
_________________
"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" Albert Einstein - 1901
If I can't curse, I can't fix it.
71 Bus
78 HD FXS Lowrider 1200cc
An Oldsmobile for crying out loud. |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon engine, in 1972~79 VW 1600 & 17/ |
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| BigLoaf wrote: |
| I too, am a bit confused by this post. I think some background information would help out. If I'm understanding everything correctly, the 80-83 vanagons from Europe came with a different engine than their American counterparts. Can we get some more info about the CT and CZ series engines? |
In Great Britain & Europe (plus possibly Australia, Japan, South Africa, New Zealand, etc.), the 1980~83 VW Vanagon (i.e. Type 2 T3 or Type 25), was available with two air-cooled engines; the 1600 CT & CZ-series engine being the default option and the 2000 engine being a purchaser-specified, extra-cost, factory-fitted option.
The 2000 engine was the default option in North America, but whether the 1600 CT & CZ-series engines were available there, as purchaser-specified, reduced-cost, factory-fitted option, I do not know!
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:26 am Post subject: purchaser-specified, extra-cost, factory-fitted option |
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This link and the one it cites from the type2.com forum are quite informative. It refers to the Haynes DIY workshop manual, for the 1980~83 VW Transporter, which I could probably borrow free of charge, through my local branch of the Essex county, public library.
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| TheTominator wrote: |
Read the tuna post, interesting. Thanks for the clarification and the photos Nigel. I vote that we all start saying "it's British Specification" when we mean, "my bus is nasty clean", lol.
I'm going to have to pull my petrol tank and treat it, I think I might borrow your idea and install potential mounting points as you have. Also, as I value your opinion, (come to think of it, I value all opinions) what do you think of my near complete decision to purchase and install into my 71, the 1914 version on display at the following link?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=441562
Best Regards,
Tom. |
From personal experience, the belt-driven fan of the VW Type 1 style engine, is a major weakness, owing to dynamo or alternator shaft siezure and/or V-belt slippage or breakage. Only through my own vigilance, did I avoid seizing the VW 1600 Type 2 engine, owing to alternator-shaft siezure! Since then, I have heard from others who have experienced this mode of failure and learned from a local auto-electrician, that it is quite common.
If one were adamant about retaining a VW Type 1 style cooling system, consider using a more robust drive belt and fitting both a CHT gauge and warning light & buzzer system. Also substitute the VW Type 4, 7-row oil cooler, in place of the VW Type 1, 5-row oil cooler, in the dog-house cooling-fan housing's modified doghouse.
Here's a quotation regarding the VW Type 1 style engine, from one generally useful text book (A. Graham Bell, "Performance Tuning in Theory & Practice – Four Strokes", Haynes Publishing Group, 1981, ISBN0-85429-275-6), which is worth reading from cover to cover:
« Note: the 88 mm x 76 mm = 1849 cm³ or 90·5 mm x 74 mm = 1904 cm³ combination, is the most reliable for road and rally use. The crankcase must be machined to accept 90·5 or 92 mm barrels. This weakens the case and can cause cracking behind No. 3 cylinder unless the case is carefully welded for additional strength. »
« Engines using 78 or 82 mm cranks, will require clearance machining of the piston skirts and crankcase; and the camshaft thrust shoulder must be re-radiused to clear No. 4 con rod. For racing, Porsche rods should be used with 78 mm and 82 mm stroker cranks. »
Given the inherent advantages of 1985~92 VW 2100 Vanagon's 76 mm stroke crankshaft and the likelyhood of obtaining a cheap, salvaged engine from the wrecker's yard, the 88 mm x 76 mm = 1849 cm³ option, might be preferable.
The Bosch Digifant fuel injection, as used on the water-cooled Vanagon engines, might also be quite useful as it can be reprogrammed for different engine specifications and fuel octane rating. This fuel injection, was used on the Brazilian built, 1997~2005 VW 1600 Type 2s, imported into Great Britain, which had the recent Mexican built, VW 1600 Type 1 Beetle, air-cooled engines.
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon engine, in 1972~79 VW 1600 & 17/ |
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Noting that the 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon, alternator-shaft driven, booster fan, provides the only air inlet to the heating & ventilation system, this provides a good opportunity to create a warm-air recycling system; re-heating warm air from inside the passenger cabin.
Not only does this provide more rapid warm-up in cold weather, but in hot weather, when the exhaust heat-exchanger control flaps are closed, it will extract warm air and vent it under the vehicle, allowing more cool, fresh air to enter the passenger cabin, via the ventilation system and/or open windows.
Given that the 1980~83 VW 1600 Vanagon engine, is shorter overall than the 1980~83 VW 2000 Vanagon engine, there should be sufficient space, to connect a flexible elbow to the alternator-shaft driven, booster fan and hence ducting to an inlet in the rear of the passenger cabin.
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet |
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TheTominator
Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2007
Posts: 898
Location: HICKORY, NC. USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the info Nigel. I can understand that this will be a good swap for your bus and somewhat more difficult for mine. The truth is, I am not a Vw purist and would be happiest if someone would sell me a kit consisting of the necessary brackets, spacers, mounts, etc., so that I could install some readily available water cooled engine. The fellow that recently installed a Toyota 3tc into his bus here on thesamba could probably earn a decent income if he offered a kit. Watercooled kit wise, my choice seems to be limited to a no longer complete Corvair conversion. Retrogression is not an option for me.
I want more horsepower without having to scrutinize a cylinder head temperature gauge, should I decide to go uphill. So, considering my apparent lack of options, in addition to my lack of a machine shop and garage, it seems as if an air cooled, higher horsepower engine,will be in my future. Along with a Dakota digital CHT gauge.
Best Regards,
Tom.
_________________
"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" Albert Einstein - 1901
If I can't curse, I can't fix it.
71 Bus
78 HD FXS Lowrider 1200cc
An Oldsmobile for crying out loud. |
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