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Joey Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2005 Posts: 5366 Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder #3 Fires at 7.5 BTDC |
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Randyfukeway wrote: |
FINALLY got myself a '74 Beetle yesterday. I was checking the timing and cylinder#3 fires at 7.5 BTDC. I know enough about checking the timing and making the necessary adjustments. I am not sure what to do with this situation. Is this a big deal, or should I do something different? |
#1 and #3 will be timed the same... or very close but timing is done off of the #1 plug wire/cylinder.
Find the part number on your distributor and go here http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm to get the proper timing specs. _________________ Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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Randyfukeway Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2013 Posts: 17 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder #3 Fires at 7.5 BTDC |
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Joey wrote: |
Randyfukeway wrote: |
FINALLY got myself a '74 Beetle yesterday. I was checking the timing and cylinder#3 fires at 7.5 BTDC. I know enough about checking the timing and making the necessary adjustments. I am not sure what to do with this situation. Is this a big deal, or should I do something different? |
#1 and #3 will be timed the same... or very close but timing is done off of the #1 plug wire/cylinder.
Find the part number on your distributor and go here http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm to get the proper timing specs. |
Awesome! Thanks for the help. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31361 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder #3 Fires at 7.5 BTDC |
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Randyfukeway wrote: |
FINALLY got myself a '74 Beetle yesterday. I was checking the timing and cylinder#3 fires at 7.5 BTDC. I know enough about checking the timing and making the necessary adjustments. I am not sure what to do with this situation. Is this a big deal, or should I do something different? |
If #3 fires at 7.5BTDC, so do #1, #2, and #4. For the ignition timing, depends on which distributor; in the 40 years of your VW, may have been changed several times. 7.5BTDC at idle speeds is OK for some distributors, what really is important is that the full advance at like 3500 rpm is like 30 degees BTDC.
Find the number on your distributor body and post that, and photos of it. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Joey Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2005 Posts: 5366 Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Cylinder #3 Fires at 7.5 BTDC |
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Cusser wrote: |
If #3 fires at 7.5BTDC, so do #1, #2, and #4. |
Correct. But, when pointing a timing light at the pulley for #2 and #4 the TDC mark on the pulley will be pointing down and not up. _________________ Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Cylinder #3 Fires at 7.5 BTDC |
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Joey wrote: |
#1 and #3 will be timed the same... or very close but timing is done off of the #1 plug wire/cylinder. |
Maybe and maybe not.
Because #3 is the notorious problem cylinder a lot of the distributors floating around are the earlier ones with one retarded lobe intended for #3. So check timing on all 4 and see what it really has. My German 009 has a retard which I don't pay any attention to because it's not running off of a retarded lobe but rather the Pertronix magnetic ring.
But that brings up the issue of making sure the retard is going to the right cylinder if it does have the retard. For instance a mechanical advance distributor without the vac pod can be physically installed in any orientation and the distributor drive shaft can be engaged with any of the crank teeth positions so it's a crap shoot as to which cylinder is apt to get the retard. Similar with a vac/mech distributor that is limited but can be orientated different ways.
Thats another big advantage of getting rid of the stock pulley and going with a degree pulley. At least you can know when, how, and why to time it. And once you confirm if all 4 fire at the same advance it doesn't matter which one when you go to time it. All you have to do is check any one of the 4 wires.
With the stock steel pulley it doesn't matter if you time it from #1 or #3 providing you have previously checked out the retard situation. _________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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Randyfukeway Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2013 Posts: 17 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Cylinder #3 Fires at 7.5 BTDC |
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Cusser wrote: |
Randyfukeway wrote: |
FINALLY got myself a '74 Beetle yesterday. I was checking the timing and cylinder#3 fires at 7.5 BTDC. I know enough about checking the timing and making the necessary adjustments. I am not sure what to do with this situation. Is this a big deal, or should I do something different? |
If #3 fires at 7.5BTDC, so do #1, #2, and #4. For the ignition timing, depends on which distributor; in the 40 years of your VW, may have been changed several times. 7.5BTDC at idle speeds is OK for some distributors, what really is important is that the full advance at like 3500 rpm is like 30 degees BTDC.
Find the number on your distributor body and post that, and photos of it. |
We got home too late to take a photo of the distributor and I am not sure where to find the number. I appreciate your willingness to help, so I will post a picture & the number (as soon as I know how to find it). I have checked the firing order for my distributor & it does not match what I have found online as typical. Instead of firing 2-1-4-3, mine fires 1-4-3-2. If I am looking straight down on the distributor, the upper right fires cylinder#1, the lower right fires cylinder #4, the lower left fires cylinder#3, & the upper left fires cylinder#2.
2 1
3 4
The engine runs great and I am not interested in fixing something that ain't broke. I would like to understand what is going on. |
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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The firing order is 1432 or 4321, or 3214, or 2143. They are all the same order.
What you are talking about is where the wires are plugged into the cap.
The firing order has nothing to do with the position of the wires in the cap only that the firing order goes around CW. And that when #1 cylinder is at TDC at the top of the compression stroke that the #1 plug wire is plugged into the cap directly above where the rotor is positioned. _________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15982 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 5:40 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder #3 Fires at 7.5 BTDC |
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Randyfukeway wrote: |
We got home too late to take a photo of the distributor and I am not sure where to find the number. I appreciate your willingness to help, so I will post a picture & the number (as soon as I know how to find it). |
This pic shows you the typical model numbers stamped into the body of the distributor. You may need a mirror to reach around and see them.
Find your model number(s) and look them up here for info on your distributor:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm
Randyfukeway wrote: |
I have checked the firing order for my distributor & it does not match what I have found online as typical. Instead of firing 2-1-4-3, mine fires 1-4-3-2. If I am looking straight down on the distributor, the upper right fires cylinder#1, the lower right fires cylinder #4, the lower left fires cylinder#3, & the upper left fires cylinder#2.
2 1
3 4
The engine runs great and I am not interested in fixing something that ain't broke. I would like to understand what is going on. |
There is no one diagram that works for all distributors.
Here is one of the pics I love to borrow from Glenn's site:
Both of these distributor can be installed in a VW Type1 engine.
Both of these distributors are oriented as you would see them from the rear of the car.
Both of these distributors have the cog at the bottom of the distributor aligned the same (#1 TDC).
Both of these distributor rotors are pointing to where the #1 spark plug should be installed on the distributor cap.
Both of these distributors have their #1 plug wire mark (circled; this is NOT a TDC or timing mark) properly lined up with the rotor when the rotor is pointing to #1 plug wire.
These distributors are not the same.
The distributor cap for these two distributors are the same model, but you can tell from the large indexing notch in the distributor body, the cap will not fit oriented the same way.
The #1 spark plug wire is NOT located in the same place around the distributor cap.
The distributor drive gear under the distributor can be installed in 12 different positions (12 teeth; only one is the correct orientation). This means the #1 spark plug "could be" in one of 12 different positions (30-deg apart) anywhere around the distributor. There is no "one correct position" for the #1 spark plug wire.
Diagrams like this:
or this:
Can be misleading if you do not have the same distributor installed in your engine. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Last edited by ashman40 on Tue May 27, 2014 7:51 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Randyfukeway Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2013 Posts: 17 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:45 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder #3 Fires at 7.5 BTDC |
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ashman40 wrote: |
Randyfukeway wrote: |
We got home too late to take a photo of the distributor and I am not sure where to find the number. I appreciate your willingness to help, so I will post a picture & the number (as soon as I know how to find it). |
This pic shows you the typical model numbers stamped into the body of the distributor. You may need a mirror to reach around and see them.
Find your model number(s) and look them up here for info on your distributor:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm
There is no one diagram that works for all distributors.
Here is one of the pics I love to borrow from Glenn's site:
Both of these distributor can be installed in a VW Type1 engine.
Both of these distributors are oriented as you would see them from the rear of the car.
Both of these distributors have the cog at the bottom of the distributor aligned the same (#1 TDC).
Both of these distributor rotors are pointing to where the #1 spark plug should be installed on the distributor cap.
Both of these distributors have their #1 plug wire mark (circled; this is NOT a TDC or timing mark) properly lined up with the rotor when the rotor is pointing to #1 plug wire.
These distributors are not the same.
The distributor cap for these two distributors are the same model, but you can tell from the large indexing notch in the distributor body, the cap will not fit oriented the same way.
The #1 spark plug is NOT located in the same place around the distributor cap.
The distributor drive gear under the distributor can be installed in 12 different positions (12 teeth; only one is the correct orientation). This means the #1 spark plug "could be" in one of 12 different positions (30-deg apart) anywhere around the distributor. There is no "one correct position" for the #1 spark plug wire.
Diagrams like this:
or this:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/846135.jpg
Can be misleading if you do not have the same distributor installed in your engine. |
Thanks for the assistance. I was not overly concerned, but I did want to understand my set-up. I am obviously not very experienced with the ignition systems for VW beetles, but that is why I bought the car and why I am here on this forum. To get some help from those that know! |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15982 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 8:11 am Post subject: |
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One more point before I get off the soap box .....
To properly set up the ignition....
Rotate the engine until the crank + cam + valves are in the proper position for the #1 cylinder to ignite the compressed air-fuel charge. This is about 180-crank deg after the intake valve closes. This is #1 TDC at the end of the compression stroke.
Remove the distributor.
Look down in the distributor hole and the drive gear should look like this.
Orient the drive cog so it fits the drive gear down in the case hole. It only fits one way. Check that the rotor cannot be rotated more than 10-15deg (and if it does it should spring back). If it rotates more and doesn't spring back then the cog is not properly engaging the drive gear. Press the distributor in deeper.
Once you get the distributor seated, your engine is still oriented ready to fire cylinder #1. This means the rotor will be pointing where the #1 plug wire must be installed. The spark needs to travel from the coil thru the rotor to the #1 plug wire and then to the #1 plug. If the spark ends up in any other cylinder then your timing is incorrect.
Rotate the distributor body so the small notch in the rim of the distributor it near the tip of the rotor. This mark now indicates where #1 spark plug wire should be. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Randyfukeway Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2013 Posts: 17 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Cylinder #3 Fires at 7.5 BTDC |
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Cusser wrote: |
Randyfukeway wrote: |
FINALLY got myself a '74 Beetle yesterday. I was checking the timing and cylinder#3 fires at 7.5 BTDC. I know enough about checking the timing and making the necessary adjustments. I am not sure what to do with this situation. Is this a big deal, or should I do something different? |
If #3 fires at 7.5BTDC, so do #1, #2, and #4. For the ignition timing, depends on which distributor; in the 40 years of your VW, may have been changed several times. 7.5BTDC at idle speeds is OK for some distributors, what really is important is that the full advance at like 3500 rpm is like 30 degees BTDC.
Find the number on your distributor body and post that, and photos of it. |
I found my distributor number. VW 043-905-205 Bosch 0231 170 034 |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15982 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Cylinder #3 Fires at 7.5 BTDC |
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Randyfukeway wrote: |
I found my distributor number. VW 043-905-205 Bosch 0231 170 034 |
Here are the specs for your SVDA distributor:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#A1974MFD
Beetle 1974 * 1600 Federal Manual Trans
Distributor: VW 043-905-205, Bosch 0231 170 034
Can Use: VW 113-905-205AL, Bosch 0231 146 101, VW 043 905 205 ZB (Mexico) (See Note Below)
Points: 01 011
Condensor: 02 074
Rotor: 04 033
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Parts Kit (Shims, Washers & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 010 007
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 059
Ignition Wires: 09 001
Spark Plug: W8AC
Timing Set At:: 7.5deg BTDC @ 800-950rpm w/strobe and w/single vacuum hose disconnected and plugged
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 8-12deg Adv; Centrifugal: 7-12deg @ 1600rpm, 20-25deg @ 3800rpm
NOTE: Volkswagen (with Bosch's help) now makes this distributor in Mexico and is available brand new and ready to install. Please click this link:Beetle (Puebla, Mexico) With Points Distributor to view the specs.
Randyfukeway wrote: |
I was checking the timing and cylinder#3 fires at 7.5 BTDC. I know enough about checking the timing and making the necessary adjustments. I am not sure what to do with this situation. Is this a big deal, or should I do something different? |
Can you clarify what your concerns are... what "situation" are you worried about? 7.5BTDC is the correct timing for your distributor.
Not sure why you are measuring the timing from #3 plug wire instead of #1? Is there a difference in the idle timing when measured from the two cylinders? _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Randyfukeway Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2013 Posts: 17 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder #3 Fires at 7.5 BTDC |
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ashman40 wrote: |
Randyfukeway wrote: |
I found my distributor number. VW 043-905-205 Bosch 0231 170 034 |
Here are the specs for your SVDA distributor:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#A1974MFD
Beetle 1974 * 1600 Federal Manual Trans
Distributor: VW 043-905-205, Bosch 0231 170 034
Can Use: VW 113-905-205AL, Bosch 0231 146 101, VW 043 905 205 ZB (Mexico) (See Note Below)
Points: 01 011
Condensor: 02 074
Rotor: 04 033
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Parts Kit (Shims, Washers & Hardware): 059-998-211, Bosch 1237 010 007
Coil: 00 015 (Blue Coil: 00 012)
Vacuum Can: 07 059
Ignition Wires: 09 001
Spark Plug: W8AC
Timing Set At:: 7.5deg BTDC @ 800-950rpm w/strobe and w/single vacuum hose disconnected and plugged
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 8-12deg Adv; Centrifugal: 7-12deg @ 1600rpm, 20-25deg @ 3800rpm
NOTE: Volkswagen (with Bosch's help) now makes this distributor in Mexico and is available brand new and ready to install. Please click this link:Beetle (Puebla, Mexico) With Points Distributor to view the specs.
Randyfukeway wrote: |
I was checking the timing and cylinder#3 fires at 7.5 BTDC. I know enough about checking the timing and making the necessary adjustments. I am not sure what to do with this situation. Is this a big deal, or should I do something different? |
Can you clarify what your concerns are... what "situation" are you worried about? 7.5BTDC is the correct timing for your distributor.
Not sure why you are measuring the timing from #3 plug wire instead of #1? Is there a difference in the idle timing when measured from the two cylinders? |
Any concerns that I had have been eliminated, thanks to everyone's responses to my posts. |
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Regardless, check timing for consistancy on all 4 cylinders. Worn lobes can throw it off.
There is nothing magic about #1 _________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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xsteveg Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2014 Posts: 1 Location: newbugh ny
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Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:36 am Post subject: TDC, and ignition settings |
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i have the two notch pully and its not running rite:
the 2 notches are on the crank case side of the pully, no dimple.
i adjusted timing while it was running for highest rpm at idle. seem to run strong and missfire occasionally the miss fire cud have been back fire, that setting was approx 10 degrees BEFORE the rite most mark.
then i set it to the left most mark using a multimeter (static)
then i saw a youtube about how some engines need to be set AT tdc if its a certain kind of distributor so that would be to the left of the left most notch.
bottom line, runs strong most of the time and sputters occasionally to the point where there is no real power.
not even sure what engine i have i thought it a 1200cc but dont see my engine code on the list, its F0923572
anyone know what the timming should be? where TDC is? and any ideas what order i should take things? i have heard 10 degrees 7.5 degrees and 0, whats the best timing setting to make my engine last and purr
[/img] |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2011 Posts: 1593 Location: Louisville, ky
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Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:17 am Post subject: |
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xsteveq;
Good job finding the forum topic related to your problem, newbies have a tendancy to post instead of search.
You don't however get any points for reading it. The bottom of page 3 on this same thread you will find a complete rundown of all the factory pully markings. I belive the bottom picture is of your 2 notch pully.
I read a whole lot more than I post on these forums. |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13389 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:22 am Post subject: Re: TDC, and ignition settings |
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xsteveg wrote: |
i have the two notch pully and its not running rite:
the 2 notches are on the crank case side of the pully, no dimple.
i adjusted timing while it was running for highest rpm at idle. seem to run strong and missfire occasionally the miss fire cud have been back fire, that setting was approx 10 degrees BEFORE the rite most mark.
then i set it to the left most mark using a multimeter (static)
then i saw a youtube about how some engines need to be set AT tdc if its a certain kind of distributor so that would be to the left of the left most notch.
bottom line, runs strong most of the time and sputters occasionally to the point where there is no real power.
not even sure what engine i have i thought it a 1200cc but dont see my engine code on the list, its F0923572
anyone know what the timming should be? where TDC is? and any ideas what order i should take things? i have heard 10 degrees 7.5 degrees and 0, whats the best timing setting to make my engine last and purr
[/img] |
What distributor are you running? Post the entire number of it. Also, more information on your carb and engine. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:29 am Post subject: |
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It would also be nice to know if you own or can borrow a dwell meter. |
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darbyjack Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2013 Posts: 225 Location: Surrey, UK
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Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:40 am Post subject: |
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My dimple lines up with the one on the far left. I'm a bit confused.
Also I adjusted valves yesterday to 006 with the dent in the middle of the three (nearer to engine), instead of the dimple (nearer to me). Will this make a huge difference? From what I understand, it won't, but timing the distributor is important to find TDC. I have a tacho dial in advance light gun,
This pulley is not original. It came with my car when it had a 1500 engine, now it has a 1600 DP. Who knows where it came from
EDIT: I timed it to what I believe is 7.5 BTDC. Seems to drive fine. Bloody thing runs hot though. Still able to JUST hold dipstick with my finger, but then again I'm usually able to touch hotter things than most people. Got hot air coming come out of heater channel, despite being rusted and the exchanger has about a 2cm gap from where it gets the air form the engine. Blah. _________________ 1970 VW Beetle standard. 1600 DP engine
Right hand drive from UK of course! |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15982 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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darbyjack wrote: |
Also I adjusted valves yesterday to 006 with the dent in the middle of the three (nearer to engine), instead of the dimple (nearer to me). Will this make a huge difference? From what I understand, it won't, but timing the distributor is important to find TDC. I have a tacho dial in advance light gun, |
Valve adjustments only need to be close to TDC for #1 & #3 and BDC for #2 & #4. The cam lift is basically zero for many degrees on either side of the base circle. See pic below, valve gap is set with the lifter resting against the bottom of the cam lobe (base circle), 180-deg from the nose.
Without knowing the model of the distributor we cannot tell you if 7.5BTDC is correct, or not. What is the model# stamped into the body of the distributor (see pic above). _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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