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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: |
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ashman40 wrote: |
I always thought this sticky could use a few more pics to help out those wondering what the markings on their stock pulleys were. Here is a table that was only partially shown on the first page. It shows the pulleys by engine code, year and transmission. |
Thank you. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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ashman40 wrote: |
Does anyone have a pulley with ONLY a TDC mark (dimple or notch)? |
Yes, I have a single notch (no dimple) pulley. Don't remember where I got it and have never used it. Whether it's a ATDC or a BTDC pulley I don't know but it it would have been pulled off of a late dual relief case.
So bottom line is if it's a single notch you don't know what it is. Either way you're taking a 50/50 chance of ending up 15 degrees off on your timing.
Then with any pulley with more than one notch you have no idea of what the notches really are. Since many of us have gotten our files out to make our special notches.
The original stock dimple would probably be a good indication but not a single pulley in my pile of them have a dimple.
Back to the bottom line with stock steel pulleys- Regardless of the notch confusion it might be close enough for valve adjustment. But it is taking a big chance on the timing. An error can result in a engine that runs poorly or one that ends up destroyed.
Basically that leaves few solutions.
1. Put on a degree pulley.
2. Temporarily put on a degree pulley to confirm where a stock steel pulleys notches really are.
3. Use a dial indicator or the piston stop device to find TDC. It has to be done using the tripple mark method we've described.
4. Do not use soda straws or pencil eraser or other similar methods. Unless you can live with being 5 or 10 degrees out. _________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:10 am Post subject: |
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Desertbusman wrote: |
2. Temporarily put on a degree pulley to confirm where a stock steel pulleys notches really are. |
Or you could print out one of the degree wheels on the first page of this thread and hold it up to the rear face of the pulley (rear is rear). Cut a hole through the center so you can see the center hub hole and the slot for the woodruff key. That slot should be at the 9-o'clock position (-90deg or +270deg from TDC). Once you line that up properly, you can mark the TDC position as well the other notches. You can also confirm any existing notches. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:26 am Post subject: |
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That is a decent method to consider. Providing someone approaches a task like that with some super precision. For instance every .010" error locating the keyway on the bore would result in one degree of error out at the O.D.
At the same time by being reasonably careful it should be able to identify existing stock pulley notches. _________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Desertbusman wrote: |
For instance every .010" error locating the keyway on the bore would result in one degree of error out at the O.D.
At the same time by being reasonably careful it should be able to identify existing stock pulley notches. |
Completely agree.
Use the keyway as a starting point. From here you can confirm the stock timing mark(s). Using them as a guide you adjust the timing wheel so the timing mark lines up to perfectly (this assumes the stock timing mark is accurate). This should reduce the amount of error as you mark/notch and additional marks (TDC, 29BTDC, etc) around the outer lip. Though, I'm not sure I would trust an aftermarket stock pulley to have accurate timing marks? _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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sxuxrxf Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 1338 Location: Oceanside, CA
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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I have what I believe to be a later pulley, single notch with no dimple. Keyway is perfectly lined up at 9 o'clock and notch is at the center of case when at TDC.
I have an Empi degreee pulley, and checked against 2 others, and found that without moving the engine from TDC, the pulleys are 10* off. The TDC is to the left of the case split and 10* is at center.
Engine is a 1600 SP with 205T vacuum distributor to be timed at 0*. When timing with the degree pulley, it makes noises.
Are the aftermarket pulleys I've seen printed wrong or is the stock pulley not TDC, even though it lines up correctly with the piston all the way up( or out)? _________________ (ignore the X's ) |
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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sxuxrxf wrote: |
Keyway is perfectly lined up at 9 o'clock and notch is at the center of case when at TDC.
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That's some pretty big assumptions. What precision methods are you using to determine TDC? What you mentioned doesn't do it. Forget the notch on your stock pulley. _________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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sxuxrxf Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 1338 Location: Oceanside, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:05 am Post subject: |
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TDC was determined by using a tool that threads into spark plug hole to find TDC. Once found, each pulley was put on.
Engine runs good when timed to the notch on the stock pulley, assuming notch is 0*.
Engine doesn't run as good and makes noise at higher rpm's (detonation, pinging?) when timed to the TDC mark on the degree pulley.
I'll be playing with it some more tonight. _________________ (ignore the X's ) |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:23 am Post subject: |
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Try the printed degree wheel on the first page of this thread. Line up the 9-o'clock "90-deg" mark with the center of the woodruff key slit on your Empi degree pulley and see how well it compares. You could also use a protractor (borrowed from your children) to verify the makings.
You mentioned comparing the Empi pulley with others... was the Empi the only odd one? _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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sxuxrxf Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 1338 Location: Oceanside, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Turns out that the notch on the stock pulley isn't TDC. The degree pulleys are correct. The notch goes just passed the case seam.
The pulley is strange in that there are no other markings other than the single notch. The distributor is a 205T vacuum only, to be set at 0*. While it was set to the notch instead, it ran fine. Not overly powerful, but fine. When adjusting to the TDC of the degree pulley, it ran the same but started making a metallic noise at higher rpm's. Not sure what is going on.
Putting together a test stand to run the engine so that I may try other distributors. Also, if I find that there is once again an internal issue, I don't have to pull the engine out. _________________ (ignore the X's ) |
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cferry7 Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2011 Posts: 400 Location: S.E. U.S.A
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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To BrockGrimes or other -
On my '71 Super . . .
My Crank Pulley has V Notch just left of the Dimple TDC mark.
I do not believe that the V Notch is 5 degrees BTDC, it appears much too close to the Dimple Marking for it to be 5 degrees. When I change the Timing Degree knob control advance on my Timing Light the distance difference is much greater than the spacing between the Notch and Dimple. So I don't understand the difference between these two markings.
Again my V Notch is right next to the Dimple. |
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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sxuxrxf wrote: |
TDC was determined by using a tool that threads into spark plug hole to find TDC. |
You didn't use the proper method when using the tool, whatever tool you used. You can't determine TDC unless you measure it going up from both directions. Read my other post. And you surely can't use a pencil or some of the other bogus methods.
This whole TDC issue is real common in the Bay bus forum. And frequently folks say they check it (the wrong way) and the degree pulley is off . Then finally after arguing and beating their head against the wall they end up doing it right. The common issue is usually incorrectly assuming what the notches mean on stock pulleys. Very seldom somenone interprets the notches right. Best to totally forget about them. And I think that using the paper template off of the keyway will only result in getting somewhere in the ballpark with no accuracy. Maybe within a few degrees. Sounds like you just confirmed the 9 O clock thing failed for you.
As far as how your engine runs after timing would be avoided if your distributor wasn't vacuum only. It's by far better to set it at maximum advance and not at idle, which you are not able to do. If you run it up to where advance is maxed out (vac lines removed) which is probably around 3,000 or 3,500 and set it at 28-30 BTDC you will have it. That's where you drive it. You don't drive it at idle.
For everyone else, ignore your stock pulley notches until after you do some serious homework.
This is from page 3-
Desertbusman wrote: |
1. Get a degree pulley.
2. When building your engine before it's all assembled and you still have access to the crank rod journal, put on the pulley and compare with the case split line. Then you know where the pulley TDC is.
3 Make an adjustable solid stop to screw in the plug hole. Adjust it to stop the piston just before the top. Mark the pulley. Rotate the crank backwards until it again hits the stop. Make another mark.carefully measure between your two new marks and locate the half way point. That's TDC.
Other methods basically tell you when the piston is at the top of it's travel. Don't forget that at the top of the movement arc there is an amount of swing of the crank where the piston basically is motionless. So just running a piston to the top you might miss the real TDC by a few degrees. So if you really want to know TDC do 1 or 2 or 3.
Obviously, trying to interpret notches on stock pulleys is apt to get you in trouble. |
_________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:27 am Post subject: |
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sxuxrxf wrote: |
Turns out that the notch on the stock pulley isn't TDC. The degree pulleys are correct. The notch goes just passed the case seam.
The pulley is strange in that there are no other markings other than the single notch. |
cferry7 wrote: |
My Crank Pulley has V Notch just left of the Dimple TDC mark. |
A single V-notch is most likely a 5ATDC marking.
There was an earlier 1200cc pulley with a single notch at 10BTDC, but you probably don't have this pulley on your engine (harder to find and may be smaller diameter).
cferry7 wrote: |
I do not believe that the V Notch is 5 degrees BTDC, it appears much too close to the Dimple Marking for it to be 5 degrees. When I change the Timing Degree knob control advance on my Timing Light the distance difference is much greater than the spacing between the Notch and Dimple. So I don't understand the difference between these two markings.
Again my V Notch is right next to the Dimple. |
If the notch is to the left of TDC (counter-clockwise from the TDC dimple) it represents an ATDC timing.
As the engine runs and the crank pulley rotates clockwise... if the mark on the pulley reaches the case split BEFORE the TDC dimple... it is a BTDC marking. If the notch reaches the case split AFTER the TDC dimple has past the case split... it represents an ATDC marking.
If you have a timing light with an advance adjustment...
- set the timing light to zero advance
- adjust the idle timing to the mark that is furthest to the right (this is just temporary)
- tighten down the distributor so the timing doesn't change.
- adjust the timing light advance so the next mark to the left lines up. Read the timing light to see the timing difference between the markings.
- adjust the timing light advance so the TDC marking lines up with the case split. The reading on the timing adjustment represents the difference from TDC.
If you timing mark is to the left of the TDC mark... set your timing to TDC and adjust the timing using the timing light adjustments until the v-notch lines up with the case split. The reading will now be how much your timing is RETARDED from TDC. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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martin2010 Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2011 Posts: 11 Location: kent, united kingdom
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:40 am Post subject: |
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ashman40 wrote: |
While this pulley looks like the first one, it came off a later model engine. The single notch indicates 5ATDC.
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i have pulley fit to my 72 engine i do time to this notch
here pics of my engine
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15975 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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martin2010 wrote: |
i have pulley fit to my 72 engine i do time to this notch
here pics of my engine
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Can you confirm the distributor model#?
It looks like my 205 (SVDA) which is timed at 7.5 BTDC.
The thing is, the stock pulley for an SVDA should have two notches. So maybe someone changed the distributor our the crank pulley on your engine??
The single notch (5 ATDC) pulley was meant for use with a DVDA distributor. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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martin2010 Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2011 Posts: 11 Location: kent, united kingdom
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:55 am Post subject: |
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ashman40 wrote: |
[
Can you confirm the distributor model#?
It looks like my 205 (SVDA) which is timed at 7.5 BTDC.
The thing is, the stock pulley for an SVDA should have two notches. So maybe someone changed the distributor our the crank pulley on your engine??
The single notch (5 ATDC) pulley was meant for use with a DVDA distributor. |
thanks for your reply
how do i find out the distributor model ?
thank again |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:32 am Post subject: |
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There will be a series of numbers embossed on the outside of the distributor conviently located toward the front of the distributor where it will be difficult to read. The "mirror on a stick" will be your friend here.
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26297 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:29 am Post subject: |
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martin2010 wrote: |
i have pulley fit to my 72 engine i do time to this notch |
Martin2010: That engine - I didn't look at the photo except the pulley when you first posted it. Now though, I have to ask - what engine is this? Zooming in, it looks like a 1200 with a serial of D 1377124 , I can't quite tell if that 2nd number is a 3 or not. But if that is correct, that makes this a 34bhp DIN (40HP SAE) NON-USA engine from 1976. That engine, at that time, would have likely had originally, an 043905205K distributor, those are timed to 7.5BTDC, and so the pulley would have been one with one TDC dimple and one 7.5 V-notch. (and, FYI, the matching carb for that distributor would have been a 30PICT-3 with a base flange "modification state" number of VW 525 _ (something, 1 or 3 or 4) )Of course, that was original equipment, you seldom see engines with all their original parts still hanging on them.
-Andy |
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martin2010 Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2011 Posts: 11 Location: kent, united kingdom
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Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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glutamodo wrote: |
martin2010 wrote: |
i have pulley fit to my 72 engine i do time to this notch |
Martin2010: That engine - I didn't look at the photo except the pulley when you first posted it. Now though, I have to ask - what engine is this? Zooming in, it looks like a 1200 with a serial of D 1377124 , I can't quite tell if that 2nd number is a 3 or not. But if that is correct, that makes this a 34bhp DIN (40HP SAE) NON-USA engine from 1976. That engine, at that time, would have likely had originally, an 043905205K distributor, those are timed to 7.5BTDC, and so the pulley would have been one with one TDC dimple and one 7.5 V-notch. (and, FYI, the matching carb for that distributor would have been a 30PICT-3 with a base flange "modification state" number of VW 525 _ (something, 1 or 3 or 4) )Of course, that was original equipment, you seldom see engines with all their original parts still hanging on them.
-Andy |
yes its a 1200 its in 71 bug the original engine was charged for this engine
engine number is D1377124
and it is fitted a 30PICT-3
i am not sure about the distributor yet |
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martin2010 Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2011 Posts: 11 Location: kent, united kingdom
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:34 am Post subject: |
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right the distributor numbers are
Z42
0231
043905205K
here the pulley
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