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halfgut Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2004 Posts: 226
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: distributor and wires |
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Rather than bump an old thread I thought I would ask my question a little
differently and see if I get a different response.
I recently purchased the wrong rotor and cap for my distributor. I didn't realize this until I had switched the plug wires. I switched them back and started getting a heating issue - the right side heats faster than the left. I've read the book and I think I have the wires correctly placed. Would someone please check my work?
Looking down on the distributor from the back of the engine. The nipple at 1:00 goes to cylinder 1, the nipple at 5 o'clock goes to cylinder 4. The nipple at 7 o'clock goes to cylinder 3 and the nipple at 10 o'clock goes to cylinder 2. Is that correct?
Wow, I used the word Nipple 5 times in this post (including this sentence) that has to be some kind of Samba record - although I've heard that the Ghia guys use that word a lot. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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You have to find the #1 mark on the body. It's not always in the same place. In this pictures it's at 7:00.
Put #1 there and then 1-4-3-2 clockwise. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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halfgut Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2004 Posts: 226
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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I've got it right then. Thanks for the pic. |
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halfgut Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2004 Posts: 226
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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One more question. I don't have a condenser on the outside of my distributor. Should I have one? |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Without a condensor you will burn through points rapidly, and your spark may be weak. Is this car really running now? |
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bucko Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2004 Posts: 2617 Location: Coppell, Texas
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Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:39 am Post subject: |
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halfgut wrote: |
One more question. I don't have a condenser on the outside of my distributor. Should I have one? |
Without a condensor, the pionts will form a "tit" which reduces the point gap, messing up the dwell, and the timing as well.
There, now this thread used nipple and tit. _________________ Current VW drives: 1984 Westfalia
Past VW drives: 1967 Beetle, 1973 Beetle, 1977 Bus, 1971 Military Type 181 |
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halfgut Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2004 Posts: 226
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Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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I will have to post a picture of my distributor. I'm wondering if my condenser may be inside the distributor because there is a black rectangular box inside the distributor right next to the rotor shaft and right above the points. I've tried to look for a picture of a similar distributor but can't find one.
It is still running but not well. I have almost no power and as I said before the right side is heating hot while the left is ice cold though I get exhaust out of both tailpipes. |
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bucko Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2004 Posts: 2617 Location: Coppell, Texas
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Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Do you have points??? That black box sounds like you may have a Pertronix unit; these can be installed to replace points and condensor, making your distributor a cheap "electronic ignition" system of sorts. The condensor should be a round device about an inch long, with a wire (usually green) connected to the points. The base of the condenser has to be gounded, so it attaches to either the outside of the distributor, or the inside.
As to "feeling exhaust" on one side of the engine, if it's not warm air, then those two cylinders are not burning fuel. Because the pistons will still continue to move back and forth (connected to the crankshaft with the other two cylinders), they would expel air through the exhaust pipe with unburned fuel. Do you smell strong gas fumes in the exhaust?
You may have bad valve adjustments on the left side cylinders, and/or bad valve seats, both will cause poor or low compression to take place in those cylinders. You may have two bad spark plug wires to those two cylinders, or both spark plugs are fouled, although that's not likely. Could those two spark plug wires be reversed? Check again the spark plug wire connections from the distributor to the left side cylinders to make sure they are correct. Basically, the engine is running like crap I assume.
Firing order is 1,4,3,2. The distributor will distribute spark CLOCKWISE to cylinder 1, then 4, then 3, then 2. Check the this spark plug wiring.
If that checks out, remove the left side valve cover and check that the valves are closing on the two left cylinders. A collapsed valve seat can cause incomplete compression in a given cylinder, and/or mis adjusted valves. The head bolts may have pulled too, but that can usually be detected by a "popping" sound when the engine is running. _________________ Current VW drives: 1984 Westfalia
Past VW drives: 1967 Beetle, 1973 Beetle, 1977 Bus, 1971 Military Type 181 |
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halfgut Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2004 Posts: 226
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Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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That's good information. I'll check tonight whether the wires are crossed.
Are Petronix distributors worth having or should I switch it out? |
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kubelmann Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2003 Posts: 3266
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Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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In my limited VW expereince I have found Compufire to be cheaper, better and well "better" than Pertronics..... I have Compufire in every VW I own and never take the cap off once I put the good manure inside. But then I run 009 so what do I know... |
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halfgut Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2004 Posts: 226
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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I've checked that the wires are in the correct position and the left side of the engine - cylinders 3 & 4 are still not firing. looking at the distributor cap it looks like the rotor isn't lining up on 3&4. When I take the cap off and physically move the rotor to the correct position the crank pulley moves back toward the engine (it kind of sucks back). Is there supposed to be movement front to back of the pulley? |
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Thingggg Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004 Posts: 353
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Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Are Petronix distributors worth having or should I switch it out?
You should not throw it you should send it to me.
It is nice never having to adjust or change points.
It is not a Petronix distributor the points from an ordinary distributor were removed and the two peace Petronix gadget installed to replace them. If you want just remove the pieces and put points back in. |
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Thingggg Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004 Posts: 353
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Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:15 am Post subject: |
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Wow if you can turn the engine over by turning the rotor you are one strong dude. Seriously the crank pulley is only supposed to move in out very very little--so little you should not even be able to see it. Did you rebuild this or something--if so gaskets go between the crank and flywheel that limit this movement but some must be allowed. This is called setting the end play.
Forget it for now and go back to checking out ignition. Pull the plug on #4 and hold threads to ground on the block somewhere look to see if you have spark of the tip.
Or buy one of these @ your local automotive parts store it dose the same thing just plug it into the wire and clip it to ground.
http://www.toolfetch.com/Category/Automotive/Spark_Testers/KD2756.htm
Did you use an ohm meter to check out your wires?
Harbour Freight one is way cheap.
Do you have compression on 3 and 4?
Testers are way cheep |
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halfgut Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2004 Posts: 226
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Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Compression is good but I don't have spark.
I can move the pulley in and out about 1/2 to 3/4 inches. When I push the pulley in the rotor lines up where it should be when the pulley is pulled out the rotor moves to clockwise about 1/4 inch.
The engine is original to the car which has 50K on it. It was running okay recently but then I started getting a real power loss. That's when I found out it was running on two cylinders.
I'm thinking it needs to be rebuilt. |
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halfgut Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2004 Posts: 226
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Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=411563
This is what I have. It looks like a kit of some kind.
I sort of lied when I said I didn't have spark on the left side. I have spark but it's not very strong. The right side has great spark as I found out when I shocked the crap out of myself. It made the kids laugh - which isn't always a good thing.
So, here is how I stand at this point: I have mild spark, good compression and gas present.
This is what I'm thinking: I need new parts for my distributor. Here's the question: should I go back to original, points etc., replace with this kit or purchase a new distributor? |
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Thingggg Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004 Posts: 353
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Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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I would think the endplay problem would affect all cyl equally so I would go with your thinking.
THE WIRES ARE LONGER ON THE LEFT IF THEY ARE ALL OLD IT WOULD EFFECT THEM MORE. If you haven't change them do it. Watch it run in @ night do you see sparks of the wires? Pull the wires on 3 & 4 from the distributor when it's running, dose the RPM drop? If dose look elsewhere like timing. Timing your distributor is different than stock did you know this assuming you have a 009--no vacuum canister.
Maximum advance: From the TDC mark, measure on the rim of the crankcase pulley 46 mm (for a 175 mm diameter pulley) to the right of the TDC notch. This is 30o BTDC; mark this point also with white paint. This is the maximum advance point at 3500 rpm, the timing point for 009 and SVDA distributors.
http://www.vw-resource.com/vw-resource.com_non_ssl/tune-up.html
I carry a spare distributor in a plastic bag in my car so if your present set-up turns out to be not the problem, in my view you would be out nothing you would just have a spare. If you get one get a SVDA not 009. I may be hard to get that ring out of the middle without breaking it. There are lots of good used distributors out there because the are not the best for dual carbs. |
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bucko Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2004 Posts: 2617 Location: Coppell, Texas
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: |
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If you can move the crankshaft pulley in and out by a half inch to three quarters, SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG with the endplay.
The fact that it alters the rotation of the distributor tells you your timing can never be right.
You may have two bad spark plug wires, but the fact that 2 cylinders are firing tells me the coil, distributor, point, condensor (or Pertronix unit) are working.
That endplay needs dire attention. _________________ Current VW drives: 1984 Westfalia
Past VW drives: 1967 Beetle, 1973 Beetle, 1977 Bus, 1971 Military Type 181 |
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halfgut Samba Member
Joined: October 23, 2004 Posts: 226
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the input. I've pulled 3&4 when the car is running and it makes absolutely no difference. If I pull 1 or 2 the car dies. It is definitely running on only two cylinders - which is pretty amazing if you think about it.
I'm glad to know there is an issue with the end play. Learning as I go makes it difficult to diagnose problems - especially when I don't know if the end play is supposed to be loose or tight. So, very good information.
I have advanced and retarded the timing and it doesn't change the fact that 3&4 don't fire. I did get 1&2 idling nicely though.
I will purchase a new distributor to see if that takes care of the problem.
Since I am learning as I go do I have to do a tear-down to solve the end play problem? |
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kevin11 Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2004 Posts: 828 Location: Arlington,Texas
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: |
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you'll have to pull the motor if that is what you want to know. Then,most likely tear it down withtha much e/p. I am wondering.. is your dist. locked down all the way?? did you just adj. it by the 10mm nut or the 13 mm nut on the clamp? |
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kevin11 Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2004 Posts: 828 Location: Arlington,Texas
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: |
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post a pic of what you are doing . sounds to me that the dist. drive is jumping in and out . may be a broken drive gear or cam. how can you get 1/ 2 inch of play ...hmmmm. Post a pict. of in and out of the endplay also. |
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