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Suboval Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2003 Posts: 794
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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johnshenry wrote: |
Another one recently discovered:
You can see the reset knob below the dash. |
How many fakes does this make? _________________ It all works on paper.
There's two things we learn from history:
1.) History repeats itself.
2.) We don't learn from history. |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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It is the same as the one that Kai posted a pic of on page 1, with the two screws in the face like the later clear needle speedos, and the heavily bordered number windows. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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kdfkid Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2004 Posts: 395 Location: Hessisch Oldendorf Germany
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: Speedo |
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Hello Suboval,
This speedo is no fake - i recently found this split that was sitting in barn since 1971
The Car is a 1951 ragtop wich is untouched and never restaured ( and was super cheap ) so this speedo can not be a fake
Christian |
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Suboval Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2003 Posts: 794
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Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 6:47 am Post subject: |
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johnshenry wrote: |
It is the same as the one that Kai posted a pic of on page 1, with the two screws in the face like the later clear needle speedos, and the heavily bordered number windows. |
Yes, it does look like an Oval face. Don't forget, the porsche speedometers also have a similar face. _________________ It all works on paper.
There's two things we learn from history:
1.) History repeats itself.
2.) We don't learn from history. |
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Suboval Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2003 Posts: 794
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Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Speedo |
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kdfkid wrote: |
Hello Suboval,
This speedo is no fake - i recently found this split that was sitting in barn since 1971
The Car is a 1951 ragtop wich is untouched and never restaured ( and was super cheap ) so this speedo can not be a fake
Christian |
Finding it in a barn doesn't mean anything. Look at the later front and rear tail lights that were added to it and the later engine parts. It could still be a fake. Do you have pictures of the back? A closeup picture of the face? _________________ It all works on paper.
There's two things we learn from history:
1.) History repeats itself.
2.) We don't learn from history. |
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usariemen Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2004 Posts: 1745 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Speedo |
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Suboval wrote: |
Finding it in a barn doesn't mean anything. Look at the later front and rear tail lights that were added to it and the later engine parts. It could still be a fake. |
Come on.
Let´s say this car run up to 1971 and sat then till now.
Later taillights, headlights and engine parts?
Of course! Would be a wonder if not.
A faked split trip speedo in 1971?
No way, for me.
I have a 1954 speedo with a very strange face. A beetle speedo.
The face is bus style but with beetle painting.
I know of a couple more. All from the same two months in 1954.
So they are fake? No. For what ever reason those where made for a short period and installed in the beetles at the factory.
That the trip speedos have the screws like the later ones does not mean to me that they are all faked.
This is mine.
There are others.
_________________ Master of my domain! |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Well let's define "fake" then. Is it:
A) Not installed by VW at the factory when the car was made
B) Not installed by VW or a VW dealer at any time
C) Not made specifically for split window Beetles
D) Not made by the VDO (ie: "Homemade")
I would contend only that all of the ones presented here are A fakes. But when you say "original" (no fake), unless you mean that it was installed at the factory, when the split was manufactured, you need to clarify.
This last one of Christians could easily have been added to the car at some point after manufacture, even 1971 for example. Could have been sold and installed by a VW dealer. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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usariemen Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2004 Posts: 1745 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Fake means to me that it was made up at home by someone.
Out of a later VW trip speedo or an other trip speedo. Using a cut up split face or a reprinted split face. Simply faked.
I would say none where ever installed in the factory in Wolfsburg.
Those where offered as accessories and where maybe istalled by the vw dealers on request of the customers or by the owners after they already had the car. _________________ Master of my domain! |
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vw-vintage Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2004 Posts: 83
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Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Made in VDO Dienst service 1953 2 screws 100% ORIGINAL The rollers are in metal and digits painted all the drives parts are metal
ORIGINAL no COPY!!!
Ciao
Fred |
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tstracy39 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 3294 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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I'm finally starting construction on the first repro Split Beetle rallye gauge set including the 120MPH tripcounter speedometer. I'll post pictures when I'm done. It'll take a while, because I'm also going to be making a repro Motometer brown face oil temp and fuel gauge set to go with it. The oil and fuel gauges will have functioning warning lights in the face. The switch for the oil temp warning light will need be installed into the oil sump plate, which will need the oil drain plug hole bored out and tapped with a 1/2NPT threading tap, because the only warning switches available have a 1/2NPT threaded casing. The oil temp gauge sending unit will install into the oil pressure warning switch location using an adapter fitting like a Motometer Rallye Pack sending unit for an Oval Beetle. Stay tuned... _________________ Check my classifieds for kewl gauges:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?username=tstracy39
EverettB wrote: |
I like your fork. |
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tstracy39 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 3294 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Just took a picture of everything I have together before it all gets packed up. I'm moving house for the third time in as many months. As soon as I get settled in I'll finish the first set. The lacquer on the pointers and glass retaining rings needs to dry anyway. The price I put out there was for the tach and trip speedo combo. The fuel and oil gauges are separate.
_________________ Check my classifieds for kewl gauges:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?username=tstracy39
EverettB wrote: |
I like your fork. |
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tstracy39 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 3294 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: trip speedo |
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Brezelwerks wrote: |
johnshenry wrote: |
Brezelwerks wrote: |
IN2VWS wrote: |
53 0val wrote: |
oval53/split52 wrote: |
Does anybody have a scan of the OG accessory brochure with a picture of this trip meter? |
Agreed.......................Let's get some good 'original' pictures of the "real" stuff and how it is supposed to look.......with the correct faces and shift points. |
Will this suffice? from a 1955 VDO catalog.
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Now that helps! Thanks IN2VWS! Substantiates at least one of the trip speedos shown so far, but not the one with the screws on the face, too bad the pic doesn't show the winder mechanism though. |
No it doesn't. Because the one show in the lit looks nothing like the two shown in the pics.
Somehow I knew that if there was a lit-answer, IN2VWS would be the one with it!! |
Yes it does actually. The bottom line here is that authentication is a process coupled with a series of procedures, generally first initiated with original literature and collateral materials as a baseline. From there its a non-biased approach to data collection and multiple evaluations. Other variables and anomalies are captured and discussed outside the limitations here on the forums, to help remove the element of overly strong opinions and the emotions they often bring. Owners of such things and those whom are naturally argumentative are a given to be prepared to defend what they believe or the story they were once told.
The next reality as many long time accessory collectors already know and have already pointed out, there are literally thousands of accessories shown in original catalogs and brochures which were either full hand drawings, artistic renderings, or photographic touchups. Each piece of collateral was developed for various purposes and vary widely during the era for this reason, what you bought most often did not look like it did in the catalog.
Therefore there were wide variations between what is shown in a catalog vs. what the actual production accessory looked like. Just one common example of many is the first Bosch split beetle accessories catalog, which although there are a few photographs of accessories inside, nearly all the accessories listed are professionally hand drawn, missing fine details, and varying widely from the actual production piece. Most catalogs and brochure like collaterals are not formal production or mechanical drawings, therefore various details nomatter how well intended are going to be left out or even embellished somehow to illustrate or highlight a particular feature better.
It is highly likely therefore that the VDO catalog picture provided was just a touchup of a factory stock speedo, and there is alot of evidence even at arms length from that picture (as mentioned) that the color of the trip odometer is much darker than the upper odometer, the text/font is very different, there is an indication of a decorated border around the trip odometer, and most conspicuously, the winder is not pictured/drawn in. Therefore all strong indications that the these were all likely hand made embellishments made to a stock speedo picture, to make it purposely appear different and stand out from the stock speedo, really to just make it more desireable looking to the customer, nothing new with sales collateral then or today.
Next, there are several other factors why I do believe at this point at least one of these split trip speedos shown is highly likely original now that there is documented evidence that these were a real VDO offering. One of these trip speedos is just likely a variation on the theme presented in the catalog illustration, and one of them particularly appears to be rather precision made. There will be slight differences in the actual location of the trip odometer wheels vs what is pictured, the faces may be different (ALOT depends on what version/dated speedo was actually used for the catalog picture), etc. etc.
Procedurally however, determining which one (or more) is actually (most believed to be) original can only be authenticated by closeup external examination and careful disassembly so that the internals can be evaluated. This is where the rubber meets the road. Perhaps upwards of 100+ details would be evaluated such as; aesthetics, stampings, platings, silkscreens, functionality, tooling marks, fit/quality of the build, authentication of the mechanicals, etc etc. Pictures posted here and tail chasing debates on forums is one thing, a signpost at best, but until more than a few of these speedos can be examined up close and impartially, varying levels of uncertainty will exist with every one of these trip speedos, and as such the value of these things will continue to be disputed.
The point here is that the authentication process is data driven. Upon completion of this process (when requested from us) the item will be given an authentication rating, with related comments as seen necessary to substantiate the evaluation. As basically anything can be reproduced today, its becoming more important, especially within the collector's community, to have rare accessories carefully authenticated. Collectibility and related future values will be greatly enhanced by such an evaluation, especially important when we are discussing 4 figure ($$$$) accessories.
A customer of mine (to remain anonomous thank you) contacted me to help evaluate their version trip speedo, and I've provided a few initial pics here as general courtesy. It appears to resemble what Jim P. also has which came with his kab, with a 4th scroll (10ths indicator likely). Jim remarked that his speedo had some other markings, and perhaps on his planned visit up here shortly he will bring this up so we can have a closer look (he lives local). We should be able to draw and detail the comparisons and list this on our Population Report (citing/detailing who, what, where, what anamolies, etc), which is part of our growing Zubehor report.
So in the spirit of the discussion here, this other variant (now upwards of 4 variations so far) the winder mechanism protrudes from the back of the 6.51 dated rear case at @45 degrees parallel from the back case, not down like on Claus's version.
Splitjunkie, IN2VWs, Bob S., as we've discussed prior, I'm likely to contact you about the specifics as I learn them to assist with your opinions on the eval results, will be in touch shortly with more details.
Gary
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Just looking at the pictures, this speedometer is definitely fake. The tripmeter and trip reset handle/knob, and the potmetal speedo mechanism casting are Porsche 356 A parts, and they couldn't have been made until late 1955, making them at least 4 years newer than the speedometer. If the speedo was a factory upgrade sent in much later than the original date stamp, it would have all aftermarket VDO parts in it and no standard equipment Porsche parts. _________________ Check my classifieds for kewl gauges:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?username=tstracy39
EverettB wrote: |
I like your fork. |
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tstracy39 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 3294 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Here's one last update on the full Rallye Split Beetle gauge sets with trip speedometer before I finally get a set put together: I had to do a lot of research and development to figure out how to fit the warning lights inside the fuel and oil gauge housings and modify existing modern sending units to be installed in a Split Beetle in a non-invasive manner (since I know for a fact none of you wants to cut or weld your fuel tank for a mounting flange, or re-tap the oil sump plate for a 1/2-NPT hot oil warning light switch...), but all of the design work is finalized and I just ordered the last batch of parts I need. The heavily modified fuel tank sending unit will bolt directly into the stock filler neck just like an OG Split Beetle VDO filler neck sender, and the hot oil switch will be either a Berg/Savemybug dipstick or a 1/4NPT ISSPRO switch remachined to a 14MMX1.5 thread pattern so it will fit in the stock VW oil drain plug hole. I thought about throwing together a repro VDO 52mm clock to go along with the set, but decided I've already made everyone wait long enough and probably no one is going to want a clock anyway. A couple of you have expressed interest in acquiring a set or certain gauges from the set, I still have your information and I'll drop you a line as soon as I have something put together. Because of the extra work involved in making the sending units Split Beetle friendly, the price is going to be a bit more than what I originally guessed, but you won't have to do anything drastic to the engine or fuel tank to mount senders because the senders will be no more invasive than OG Motometer and VDO units. _________________ Check my classifieds for kewl gauges:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?username=tstracy39
EverettB wrote: |
I like your fork. |
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tstracy39 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 3294 Location: Seattle, WA
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tstracy39 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2008 Posts: 3294 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:17 am Post subject: |
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Suboval wrote: |
johnshenry wrote: |
Another one recently discovered:
You can see the reset knob below the dash. |
How many fakes does this make? |
This one is actually the most likely to be a real, purpose-built by VDO trip speedo, because the dial face is clearly made from scratch to be a trip speedo dial face and is not just a regular non-trip speedo dial face with the tripodometer dial windows punched out. You could special order just about any kind of speedometer from VDO at one time if you wanted, they made many special speedos for one-off Porsche based racecars and prototype VW's in the 50's. It was just exceedingly rare for someone to try to race in a Split Beetle back then, due to the inherent slowness of the car, and this is why you rarely see the real Split trip speedos these days. Some Split Beetle taxis might have had the trip speedos, but there are only a handful of surviving Split Beetle taxis today, and taxi speedometers are almost always a special purpose built speedo that is quite a bit larger than a standard Split Beetle speedometer because they have a very complicated internal mechanism to drive the odometer (the odometer needs to continuously move forward even if the car gets put in reverse, otherwise the taxi driver loses the fare for the number of milesX2 that the car is driven in reverse, and the resulting very complicated odometer drive mechanism is large and takes up a lot of space, making the speedo housing significantly larger than a stock Split Beetle speedo housing, at least an inch longer in total length. Also, taxi speedos almost always have a locking trip reset mechanism, so that it's not possible for the passenger to zero out the tripodometer unless he gets the key from the driver somehow). _________________ Check my classifieds for kewl gauges:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?username=tstracy39
EverettB wrote: |
I like your fork. |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:29 am Post subject: |
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tstracy39 wrote: |
What about this one? Is it real or fake?
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Looks fake to me. Color of the faces is off. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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56reddy Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2005 Posts: 774
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Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:32 am Post subject: |
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johnshenry wrote: |
tstracy39 wrote: |
What about this one? Is it real or fake?
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Looks fake to me. Color of the faces is off. |
I don't see a 120mph speedo in a split beetle. _________________ New Vintage Specialist.
1974 ghia convertible
1981 Vanagon Westfalia
Making VW’s Fun Again.(MVFA) |
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mandraks Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2004 Posts: 7045 Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
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Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:10 am Post subject: |
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you also do not see an 8000 RPM tach in a beetle or bus _________________ regards
Uli
----------------------------------------
'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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rlmartinez Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2005 Posts: 233 Location: Whittier, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Nice work Tracy _________________ 54 Bug
56 convertible |
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splitjunkie Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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tstracy39 wrote: |
Suboval wrote: |
johnshenry wrote: |
Another one recently discovered:
You can see the reset knob below the dash. |
How many fakes does this make? |
This one is actually the most likely to be a real, purpose-built by VDO trip speedo, because the dial face is clearly made from scratch to be a trip speedo dial face and is not just a regular non-trip speedo dial face with the tripodometer dial windows punched out. You could special order just about any kind of speedometer from VDO at one time if you wanted, they made many special speedos for one-off Porsche based racecars and prototype VW's in the 50's. It was just exceedingly rare for someone to try to race in a Split Beetle back then, due to the inherent slowness of the car, and this is why you rarely see the real Split trip speedos these days. Some Split Beetle taxis might have had the trip speedos, but there are only a handful of surviving Split Beetle taxis today, and taxi speedometers are almost always a special purpose built speedo that is quite a bit larger than a standard Split Beetle speedometer because they have a very complicated internal mechanism to drive the odometer (the odometer needs to continuously move forward even if the car gets put in reverse, otherwise the taxi driver loses the fare for the number of milesX2 that the car is driven in reverse, and the resulting very complicated odometer drive mechanism is large and takes up a lot of space, making the speedo housing significantly larger than a stock Split Beetle speedo housing, at least an inch longer in total length. Also, taxi speedos almost always have a locking trip reset mechanism, so that it's not possible for the passenger to zero out the tripodometer unless he gets the key from the driver somehow). |
Maybe it's an optical illusion but the center of that speedo appears to be a different color from the rest of the the faceplate. It looks like that one on the first page that had a separate center bezel. _________________ Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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