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Celthing
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2007
Posts: 115
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 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:05 am Post subject: Thing front beam/type 1 swap |
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Just replaced my brakes and shocks only to realize my front beam has CHUNKS that are completely rusted out. I need a new beam. I've read many very good posts on the Samba about just this issue, but many have contradictory advice. I am a novice at this and don't know all the lingo (terms for front end parts) just yet. Please toss in advice as necessary on any of these items.
OK. The type 1 beam will bolt right on, but will be just be a bit lower. This can be corrected a little by purchasing and installing a Sway-a-way kit. This correct?
I have read that the torsion arms, balljoints, springs, left side tie rod, and backing plates are thing specific. But, I can get a spindle-to-spindle type 1 beam from Mid America motor works with torsion arms and ball joints already attached. Will i need new springs and backing plates? Will my old tie rod work on the new beam?
Again, I don't know squat about front ends, but mine looks like it sat in a swamp in Florida for 30 years. It looks BAD! Everythng has massive balls of corrosion, all the boots are shredded. I don't think it is rebuildable, and judging by the costs of Thing Torsion bars and such, that would be much more expensive than buying the whole unit. And I can't weld, yet. I will remedy that by taking a class this winter.
Any input would be appreciated! |
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prom8n
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2005
Posts: 60
Location: Pinckney, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:41 am Post subject: Thing front axle |
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Yeah, I'm doing the same thing with mine. The original frame is too rusted out, so I'm modifying a Bug frame to fit. I've welded on new mounts for the extra Thing-only side brackets. Here's a pic of the project so far:
Standard Bug axles will bolt up to the Thing frame, but the lower ride is caused by the different spindles, not the frame or the springs. If you could get a bare frame and re-use all the Thing torsion arms (yes, they fit), spindles, brakes and steering components, you'd be in pretty good shape. |
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Ian Epperson
Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2005
Posts: 2262
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Thing front axle |
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| prom8n wrote: |
| Standard Bug axles will bolt up to the Thing frame, but the lower ride is caused by the different spindles, not the frame or the springs. If you could get a bare frame and re-use all the Thing torsion arms (yes, they fit), spindles, brakes and steering components, you'd be in pretty good shape. |
X2. Because of the geometry of the spindles, you'll need to use Thing trailing arms (at least the lower one), Thing ball joints and passenger side tie rod.
I am not convinced that the springs are Thing specific. I've now got my car on the ground with the lower springs reinforced with the Sway-A-Way kit. So, that's half the kit installed - so about 7% stiffer than a standard bug set. The front end rides higher than it used to.
Here's a (not so great) before shot:
I thought the beam would be OK, but it was shot. The trailing arms and spindle have a LOT of metal in them - it takes a lot to hurt those puppies. After a sandblast and powder coat, they looked shiny and new:
I guess I'm saying that you really won't know what's OK and what's not until you pull it apart and clean it off.
Regarding the beam - I bought a Thing Shop beam with the adjusters installed. They take a bug beam, reinforce the shock towers and add the side mounts. It looks very sturdy. My two complaints about it are that it wasn't perfectly even (shouldn't affect performance - shock towers are off a bit) and that the coating sucked. I sandblasted and re-coated mine when I got it.
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prom8n
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2005
Posts: 60
Location: Pinckney, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Thing front axle |
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| Ian Epperson wrote: |
| I am not convinced that the springs are Thing specific. I've now got my car on the ground with the lower springs reinforced with the Sway-A-Way kit. So, that's half the kit installed - so about 7% stiffer than a standard bug set. The front end rides higher than it used to. |
Ian, I was worried about that too, but I checked the leaves and there were the same size and quantity in both Thing and Bug axles. Unless VW used a stiffer steel in the Thing, they should be the same. I hope. |
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mattt
Samba Member
Joined: January 20, 2004
Posts: 1143
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: |
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When I find my measurements on the front leaf pack, and someone posts the thickness of a known set of Bug leafs, we can truly find out if the Thing leafs are Thing specific.....heavier duty. I know the SAW leafs are thicker(more spring rate) than the Thing leafs I've checked, but I've never had a set of Bug leafs to check.
Ian, after talking to a few people down my way, I decided to go the same route you went.....SAW leafs in just one tube. SAW leafs in both tubes would supposedly be too much.........think skate board stiff. If you want to off that other half of SAW leafs, let me know. |
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Ian Epperson
Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2005
Posts: 2262
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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I should be able to finally drive it tonight. I was going to hang on to them until I know I don't want it even stiffer - but I'll probably sell them off.
I did a side-by-side compare of the bug leaf set and my cruddy, broken Thing leaf set and they seemed identical. If VW used some kind of harder steel or something on the Thing set, it may make it tighter - but I really don't think it's any different.
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mattt
Samba Member
Joined: January 20, 2004
Posts: 1143
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Do you have the thickness measurements of the Bug leafs?
According to the tech at SAW that I spoke with spring rate is a function of leaf thickness. He didn't mention anything about "harder steel or something" in our discussion. |
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sixxxball
Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2006
Posts: 63
Location: Tucson AZ
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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i just completed a full type one swap the from spindle to spindle. the springs are the same so are the bolt up to the pan. springs are the same. the arms are different as they have two upper arms and the ball joints are thing only as well. the spindles are raised spindles and thing only and the backing plate are the same (for the most part). thing camber ajusters are bigger. and dramatically effect the bug ball joints.
however in this conversion i am using a 6" Narrowed Beam, narrowed bug torisions, bug arms, stock, bug spindles, bug drums etc. 66-67
bolts up fine. |
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mattt
Samba Member
Joined: January 20, 2004
Posts: 1143
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| sixxxball wrote: |
i just completed a full type one swap the from spindle to spindle. the springs are the same so are the bolt up to the pan. springs are the same. the arms are different as they have two upper arms and the ball joints are thing only as well. the spindles are raised spindles and thing only and the backing plate are the same (for the most part). thing camber ajusters are bigger. and dramatically effect the bug ball joints.
however in this conversion i am using a 6" Narrowed Beam, narrowed bug torisions, bug arms, stock, bug spindles, bug drums etc. 66-67
bolts up fine. |
According to VW the front leafs are a "181" part #, not the same as Bug. That is what we are trying to figure out....if they just assigned a 181 part # to the same spring. |
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sixxxball
Samba Member
Joined: June 08, 2006
Posts: 63
Location: Tucson AZ
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| mattt wrote: |
According to VW the front leafs are a "181" part #, not the same as Bug. That is what we are trying to figure out....if they just assigned a 181 part # to the same spring. |
based apon my research they are the same. but what do i know. i thought what raised it was the raised spindles. |
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mattt
Samba Member
Joined: January 20, 2004
Posts: 1143
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| sixxxball wrote: |
| mattt wrote: |
According to VW the front leafs are a "181" part #, not the same as Bug. That is what we are trying to figure out....if they just assigned a 181 part # to the same spring. |
based apon my research they are the same. but what do i know. i thought what raised it was the raised spindles. |
You are correct, the lift of the front end is accomplished by the spindles and arms being different.
What we are addressing is the spring rate(softness/stiffness) of Thing leafs vs. Bug leafs. |
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Celthing
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2007
Posts: 115
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:42 am Post subject: front end |
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Thanks for the pics. I see others have felt my pain. What I was really asking for clarification on was what I could keep off of the type 1 and what I had to use that was thing specific. I have ordered a spindle to spindle type 1 front end. One for instance is, can I use my old backing plates and brakes, or do I have to get new ones? I'm actually looking forward to tearing into this sucker.
Buying a hunk of crap Thing off the internet has its advantages....you learn a lot. |
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prom8n
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2005
Posts: 60
Location: Pinckney, Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:17 am Post subject: Re: front end |
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| Celthing wrote: |
Thanks for the pics. I see others have felt my pain. What I was really asking for clarification on was what I could keep off of the type 1 and what I had to use that was thing specific. I have ordered a spindle to spindle type 1 front end. One for instance is, can I use my old backing plates and brakes, or do I have to get new ones? I'm actually looking forward to tearing into this sucker.
Buying a hunk of crap Thing off the internet has its advantages....you learn a lot. |
These threads run like this, man. You ask a question and there's no telling where it will lead to. I'm bolting Thing torsion arms to my Bug axle/springs. This means I'm using the Thing brakes and Spindles that were attached to the arms in the first place. Do you have this option?
Oh, and you don't have to go to the internet to get a hunk of crap Thing, I've bought two of them within an hour's drive, and I have my eye on another about 10 miles away.
"Jane! Stop this crazy THING!! Jaaaaayyyne!"
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Ian Epperson
Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2005
Posts: 2262
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| I wrote: |
| I should be able to finally drive it tonight. I was going to hang on to them until I know I don't want it even stiffer - but I'll probably sell them off. |
Half a SAW kit is nice and tight. I think the full kit would make for a rough street ride - but would probably be necessary for heavier offroad use or for those looking to slam it. It takes a real hard hit to deflect my front end more than an inch.
I'll let go of the other half of the kit for half the price. Let me know. They had some surface rust, so I wire-wheeled them all and lightly oiled them - better than new.
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kubelmann
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2003
Posts: 3266
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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JANE!!!!! Stop this crazy "THING" classic....
I will take your other half swayaway kit for trade or cash. I hae a road car Thing in progress. K-mann |
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mattt
Samba Member
Joined: January 20, 2004
Posts: 1143
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| Ian Epperson wrote: |
| I wrote: |
| I should be able to finally drive it tonight. I was going to hang on to them until I know I don't want it even stiffer - but I'll probably sell them off. |
Half a SAW kit is nice and tight. I think the full kit would make for a rough street ride - but would probably be necessary for heavier offroad use or for those looking to slam it. It takes a real hard hit to deflect my front end more than an inch.
I'll let go of the other half of the kit for half the price. Let me know. They had some surface rust, so I wire-wheeled them all and lightly oiled them - better than new. |
Ian, Pm'd you about the leafs as I asked about them earlier in this thread. |
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Ian Epperson
Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2005
Posts: 2262
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| mattt wrote: |
Ian, Pm'd you about the leafs as I asked about them earlier in this thread. |
Got it.  Been very busy at with work lately.
Sorry K-mann, Matt did ask first. If I come across another set, I'll PM you. You left me torn in asking... 
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kubelmann
Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2003
Posts: 3266
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| It is all about sharing the parts. Not to worry. Matt is a great guy who has helped me out with parts and info many times. |
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lukesky
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2006
Posts: 246
Location: See The Rabbits, IA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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This may seem like a ridiculous question to some, but my front beam has similar problems to the first picture, just not as bad yet. How much does the outside part (the one that's rusted out) really matter? The two tubes that make up the bulk of the beam are the ones that bolt to the frame, and they don't seem to extend far enough from the bolts that the end piece would do a whole lot to keep those tubes from flexing other than in tandem. With the rest of the beam, including the Thing-specific strut/support/beam reinforcement and other parts, how much difference would the beam on the left perform vs. the beam on the right?
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Ian Epperson
Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2005
Posts: 2262
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:51 am Post subject: |
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On a hard bump, the trailing arms try to deflect quickly and the shocks smooth that out. So, for a split second, the tops of the trailing arms are taking most of the weight of the front end. The harder the bump, the more load it bears. If you've got the beam on the left and hit a bump hard, it would probably tear or bend the top of the shock tower and mash it into your fender.
If you don't have shocks, it wouldn't matter.
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