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toydude111
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Joined: September 23, 2002
Posts: 829
Location: So.Cal.
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 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah Gary. That's the one. I would love to find that pedal car. It would look great in my living room. 
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johnshenry
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Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 8490
Location: Dunstable, MA USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: | | 79SuperVert wrote: | | Ninamashr wrote: | Awesome pics! Am I seeing things or are those vert shells on the 3rd row from the left?
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I'll bet you those are sedans waiting for the roof sections to be welded on. |
That is the pre paint body assembly area where they put the doors, fenders and hoods on and do any gas welding and touch up grinding before the dip in the primer tank. If you look at that one row you will see no or only partial rear quarter panels and no windshield frames. I agree with Ninamashr that these are probably partial bodies either for the Karman or Heb factory's. Another point is that the bodies were were spotwelded together in a large body jig so that is where the tops would be put on, not in this area.
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Yes and they have fenders on them. I can't imagine they would put fenders on before welding the roof sections on. I think they are being prepped for shipment to either a Kab or a Heb line....
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John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'51 11E Standard Sunroof (PhotoBucket resto pics) |
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Brezelwerks
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Joined: March 17, 2003
Posts: 1386
Location: Tyngsboro, MA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| toydude111 wrote: |
Yeah Gary. That's the one. I would love to find that pedal car. It would look great in my living room. |
I actually hope to replicate that pedal car at some point down the line, I picked up 2 pedal car chassis a year ago so I can oversize the frame as a base and then modify the mechanicals. Would love to just have it sitting in my living room, but at this point with everything else in play here its probably 5+ year project. Can you imagine the delight of the kid who owned it when his dad had the original?
Gary |
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fifty8
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Joined: September 20, 2003
Posts: 405
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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I found this one in the Unicorn Book of 1953. I looked through all of the Unicorn Books of 1952, 1953, and 1954 and this was the only VW I noticed.
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2003 Golf TDI (mileage whore)
1978 Scirocco (will trade for black 16V Scirocco)
1951 Chevy Bel Air (project 'Mom's first car')
searching for May 7, 1969 Karmann Ghia |
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bwaz
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Joined: August 24, 2004
Posts: 877
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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looks like a darth vader impersonator!
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joe h.
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Joined: September 04, 2005
Posts: 687
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I did some checking and this is the V2 prototype that Porsche used, and was redone several times to keep its looks up to the latest prototype. The plate numbers change over time but the car is the same. This picture has to be post may 38 when it got the IIIA 42803 plate. According to Barber, the car was retired in the summer of 1939, but evidently survived to the end of the war??
This was the car that Hitler rode in at the end of the factory dedication ceramony. |
Here's one more erioco
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Splitdog
Samba Split Personality
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 2834
Location: Planet VW
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: | | 79SuperVert wrote: | | Ninamashr wrote: | Awesome pics! Am I seeing things or are those vert shells on the 3rd row from the left?
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I'll bet you those are sedans waiting for the roof sections to be welded on. |
That is the pre paint body assembly area where they put the doors, fenders and hoods on and do any gas welding and touch up grinding before the dip in the primer tank. If you look at that one row you will see no or only partial rear quarter panels and no windshield frames. I agree with Ninamashr that these are probably partial bodies either for the Karman or Heb factory's. Another point is that the bodies were were spotwelded together in a large body jig so that is where the tops would be put on, not in this area.
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A very interesting photo. (bottom pic). The body jig. The most revealing manufacturing photo of all perhaps. It would seem to me manufacturing dictates that they start with the rear quarters, heater channels, and front quarters. Then they pinch-roll the top on, making it a sturdy shell. But in the photo, he appears to be standing up through a sunroof. But sunroofs didn't come into play until '50, and VW didn't do 'em anyway. And there's no tooltray, making this car a 49 or older. Yet the windshield is in, and thats a part of the roof stamping. And, it also is not a 'vert, due to the shape of the windshield. Veeeeeery interesting.........
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buggen
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Joined: June 09, 2003
Posts: 594
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| Splitdog wrote: | | splitjunkie wrote: | | 79SuperVert wrote: | | Ninamashr wrote: | Awesome pics! Am I seeing things or are those vert shells on the 3rd row from the left?
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I'll bet you those are sedans waiting for the roof sections to be welded on. |
That is the pre paint body assembly area where they put the doors, fenders and hoods on and do any gas welding and touch up grinding before the dip in the primer tank. If you look at that one row you will see no or only partial rear quarter panels and no windshield frames. I agree with Ninamashr that these are probably partial bodies either for the Karman or Heb factory's. Another point is that the bodies were were spotwelded together in a large body jig so that is where the tops would be put on, not in this area.
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A very interesting photo. (bottom pic). The body jig. The most revealing manufacturing photo of all perhaps. It would seem to me manufacturing dictates that they start with the rear quarters, heater channels, and front quarters. Then they pinch-roll the top on, making it a sturdy shell. But in the photo, he appears to be standing up through a sunroof. But sunroofs didn't come into play until '50, and VW didn't do 'em anyway. And there's no tooltray, making this car a 49 or older. Yet the windshield is in, and thats a part of the roof stamping. And, it also is not a 'vert, due to the shape of the windshield. Veeeeeery interesting......... |
The roof is NOT on yet. If you look close there is no front cowl (the spot where the windshield wipers are mounted) and the front cowl is part of the roof. You are just seeing the one half of the front window frame, it’s boxed by the second piece the roof which is NOT on. |
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Undis
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Joined: October 24, 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Riga, Latvia & Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| Splitdog wrote: | | A very interesting photo. (bottom pic). The body jig. The most revealing manufacturing photo of all perhaps. It would seem to me manufacturing dictates that they start with the rear quarters, heater channels, and front quarters. Then they pinch-roll the top on, making it a sturdy shell. But in the photo, he appears to be standing up through a sunroof. But sunroofs didn't come into play until '50, and VW didn't do 'em anyway. And there's no tooltray, making this car a 49 or older. Yet the windshield is in, and thats a part of the roof stamping. And, it also is not a 'vert, due to the shape of the windshield. Veeeeeery interesting......... |
If you look closely you can see that what is there is only the inside stamping of the roof structure. That's why the assembly worker can freely stand up. The outer roof skin is still not installed at this stage. The roof pressing comes in one piece with the panel where the windshield wipers attach, and it is clear from this photo - this part is still missing. |
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Splitdog
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Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 2834
Location: Planet VW
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Ahhh, yes. The inner stamping. Then the roof was the last structural piece to be put on tying it all together. Very revealing photo. (I just wished I'd realized that sooner.) 
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CH3NO2.
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mb
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Joined: June 24, 2003
Posts: 226
Location: Nuremberg - hometown of the 1931/-32 Volkswagen Porsche Type 12
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:02 am Post subject: |
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this and more Pictures found on: http://www.typ15.de/cgi-bin/lindex?n=23
note the lanes at the right site of the road 
find out the 2 Police man (Landpolizei) 
oooops 
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79SuperVert 
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Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 8254
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: | | 79SuperVert wrote: | | Ninamashr wrote: | Awesome pics! Am I seeing things or are those vert shells on the 3rd row from the left?
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I'll bet you those are sedans waiting for the roof sections to be welded on. |
I agree with Ninamashr that these are probably partial bodies either for the Karman or Heb factory's. |
This brings up the old question of how the verts were actually built. I understood that sedan shells were shipped to Karmann, where the roof sections were removed. After Karmann completed the rest of the necessary body mods, the car was assembled by Karmann from VW parts.
The idea of "partial bodies" suggests that the bodies were shipped by VW to Karmann without roofs. But trying to move bodies around that way would be impossible to do without some kind of bracing at the doors to keep the bodies from collapsing. What would be really helpful is if someone had vintage photos of the Karmann assembly line. |
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johnshenry
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Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 8490
Location: Dunstable, MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| mb wrote: |
oooops
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Ah, he updated the lights and bumpers, he deserved what he got.
Is it being parted out now??? 
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John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'51 11E Standard Sunroof (PhotoBucket resto pics) |
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johnshenry
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Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 8490
Location: Dunstable, MA USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| 79SuperVert wrote: | | splitjunkie wrote: | | 79SuperVert wrote: | | Ninamashr wrote: | Awesome pics! Am I seeing things or are those vert shells on the 3rd row from the left?
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I'll bet you those are sedans waiting for the roof sections to be welded on. |
I agree with Ninamashr that these are probably partial bodies either for the Karman or Heb factory's. |
This brings up the old question of how the verts were actually built. I understood that sedan shells were shipped to Karmann, where the roof sections were removed. After Karmann completed the rest of the necessary body mods, the car was assembled by Karmann from VW parts.
The idea of "partial bodies" suggests that the bodies were shipped by VW to Karmann without roofs. But trying to move bodies around that way would be impossible to do without some kind of bracing at the doors to keep the bodies from collapsing. What would be really helpful is if someone had vintage photos of the Karmann assembly line. |
I don't think that they are verts now. I zoomed in with a photo editor, and it really looks like they are just bodies without the roof panels. There is nothing above the decklid at all. If it were a vert, it would have the vert cowl. And it looks like a thin windshield frame is present, just the inner part.. like the pic of the one in the body jig above.
It does seem odd that these cars would be out on the "floor" like this. But two things to keep in mind: 1) the manufacturing process was ever-changing. Workstation efficiency and parts flows were constantly being analyzed and altered (I have been working with a German division for 21 years, I know how they think) and 2) some cars may have been "sidelined" as parts shortages occurred...
Just some ideas....
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John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'51 11E Standard Sunroof (PhotoBucket resto pics) |
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splitjunkie
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Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 1808
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: | | 79SuperVert wrote: | | splitjunkie wrote: | | 79SuperVert wrote: | | Ninamashr wrote: | Awesome pics! Am I seeing things or are those vert shells on the 3rd row from the left?
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I'll bet you those are sedans waiting for the roof sections to be welded on. |
I agree with Ninamashr that these are probably partial bodies either for the Karman or Heb factory's. |
This brings up the old question of how the verts were actually built. I understood that sedan shells were shipped to Karmann, where the roof sections were removed. After Karmann completed the rest of the necessary body mods, the car was assembled by Karmann from VW parts.
The idea of "partial bodies" suggests that the bodies were shipped by VW to Karmann without roofs. But trying to move bodies around that way would be impossible to do without some kind of bracing at the doors to keep the bodies from collapsing. What would be really helpful is if someone had vintage photos of the Karmann assembly line. |
I don't think that they are verts now. I zoomed in with a photo editor, and it really looks like they are just bodies without the roof panels. There is nothing above the decklid at all. If it were a vert, it would have the vert cowl. And it looks like a thin windshield frame is present, just the inner part.. like the pic of the one in the body jig above.
It does seem odd that these cars would be out on the "floor" like this. But two things to keep in mind: 1) the manufacturing process was ever-changing. Workstation efficiency and parts flows were constantly being analyzed and altered (I have been working with a German division for 21 years, I know how they think) and 2) some cars may have been "sidelined" as parts shortages occurred...
Just some ideas.... |
If it were a shell that was waiting for a roof there would be no deck lid or fenders on it. Since there are fenders that means there are quarter panels present. That being the case there are no quarter windows on any of those shells, just the lopped off stubs front and back where the windows would be. I do not see any windshield frames I only see the top of the dash board with a small stub on each side.
These were coach built so Karman had their own presses to make the different parts to make the conversion. The early ones were much more pieced together than they were later. There would be no Vert Cowl on these shells because Karman made those, not VW. Once production was fully under say they had presses to create entire components such as quarter panels instead of grafting on their own vert parts.
I also work for a German firm, based on my experience with the German mindset, they would not waste space and dedicate a line just for partially assembled bodies with the fenders and hood attached just because the were short on roof stampings. It would just take up more space than the individual components and cause additional work. They would have to transport those shells back to the jig station, take the hoods and fenders off, weld on the roof, put the hoods and fenders back on and transport the shell back to the line.
To me it makes perfect sense that VW would not waste all of the labor and resources and send Karman an entire completed body shell only to have then cut the top off and throw it away.
It also dawned on me that these would not be for the heb factory since they have decklids on them so they would have to be for the Karman factory.
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sunroof
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Posts: 492
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Whenever I see these old factory photos I marvel at what it must have sounded like to have all those bodies flying along on steel rails with steel wheels, it must have been quite a roar!
Don |
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usariemen
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Posts: 989
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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I think these bodys on the dicussed pic are just waiting to get their roofs.
There was asked for Karmann factory pics. Here are the ones I have, but I guess they will not help.
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Splitdog
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Location: Planet VW
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Very nice pics!!!^^^
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79SuperVert
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Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, indeed. Very nice. Sadly they do not shed light on the apparent verts in this photo:
So currently the opinion seems to be that VW wouldn't waste time and money assembling a sedan body shell just to have it hacked by Karmann. Instead, that VW created partial vert shells minus roofs, cowls, windshields and various other components, but with fenders attached, to be shipped to Karmann for completion. Still doesn't sound completely right.
Although I also don't want to hijack this thread. Keep those cool vintage photos coming!!! |
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Splitdog
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Location: Planet VW
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, that is the best sounding scenario so far to me.
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