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Cost of DIY bottom-end rebuild?
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deprivation wrote:

Measuring endplay and bores is the part of the rebuild that has me spooked the most because not only do I not have the proper measurement tools but I have no previous experience from which to draw.


Setting the endplay sounds very mysterious but in fact it is fairly easy. It just takes time, patients and clear thinking about what your goals are.

I personally like using a dial indicator for setting endplay but you can also use feeler gauges. Here are a couple of pictures showing each.

The first is the dial indicator method. You can buy cheap Dial indicators that work just fine for occasional use. Many of them come with universal magnetic mounts as well. The magnet is useless on an aluminum case so you will need something like the Vise Grip in the picture below to hold the dial indicator steady. Even if you don't end up with a universal mount, all you need is some sort of device that is mounted solid to the case and holds the dial indicator the necessary distance from the flywheel. All-thread, steel strap and Vice Grips will do.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is Vintageworldtools.com's endplay tool. Theirs mounts to a hole in the rear of the case and you measure the endplay gap with feeler gauges insead of the dial indicator.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Whichever method you choose, the goal is to check how much the crank moves forward and backward in the case and to bring that movement into spec (0.003" for a new assembly) with the correct thickness of shims added between the crank and the flywheel.

The procedure is as follows:

    Engine shortblock must be assembled before beginning.

    Install flywheel without the o-ring or flywheel seal but with two shims ('83.5-'85) or the two 2.1 specific 0.75" shims ('86+).
      (I have always torqued the flywheel to spec when doing this)

    Set up your chosen method of measurment.

    Standing with the flywheel directly in front of you, pull the flywheel as far toward you in the case as it will go.
      (Using your thumbs on the case and fingers pulling on the flywheel is easiest for me)

    Set your dial indicator to zero or for the feeler gauge method, set the stop bolt so that it just touches the flywheel making
      sure that the flywheel does not move.

    Now standing in the same position (facing the flywheel), push the flywheel as far away from you as it will go in the case.
      (Thumbs on the flywheel, fingers on the case, squeezing the two together)

    Note the distance that the flywheel has moved either by reading the dial indicator, or by using a feeler gauge to measure the
      distance between the stop bolt on your Vintageworldtools.com (or similar) tool and the flywheel.

    Subtract 0.003" from this measurment and choose a shim of that thickness.

    Remove the flywheel.

    Install the chosen shim in addition to the two shims already in place.

    Reinstall the flywheel and repeat the above measurment procedure to ensure the total endplay is 0.003".

    Change shims if necessary to achieve the necessary clearance.

    Once the clearance is satisfactory, remove the flywheel and reinstall with all seals in place.

    Recheck the endplay.

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allsierra123
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is really a great thread. Tons of info.
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, don't skip setting the crank endplay. What the hell is Haynes talking about? This is one of the most important things to get right, and it has plenty to do with how the bearings wear and in time how the engine maintains oil pressure. You might just use the shim pack as is, but you had better check that it is in spec; don't assume somthing so important.

It is also quite easy to do, as loogy explained. It's not necessary to torque the flywheel bolts all the way to spec while measuring, just to 30 ft/lb or so will be fine. And on the 2.1 wbx, there is an oversize OD shim that must go in first (see Bentley p.13.41, or 13.57 for the correct measurements, shim B), then you add only two more of the smaller OD shims (shims C). By initially putting in only one of shim C, you can check endplay, and then thickness of the shim you need to add is that measurement minus .003". Always final check with the whole shim pack and make corrections if needed before installing the shims, the o-ring in the flywheel itself, and the mainseal. Then you final torque the flywheel bolts, using a little Loctite on the threads.

Don't forget to deal with the pilot shaft needle bearing and its felt washer in the end of the crankshaft before finally putting the flywheel on, if you find you need to change the needle bearing. They usually don't need to be replaced, just cleaned out and relubed with a dab of moly grease, but a new felt washer should always be used, soaked in motor oil or grease.

If you don't have a dial indicator, you can make a shim stop similar to the one shown with a bolt, a few nuts and a short scrap of metal bar maybe 2" long. I won't elaborate as it is so obvious; you just need to set up an unmoving stop close enough to the face of the flywheel that you can slip feeler gauges in between, then gauge the gap with the crank at both limits of endplay. That gives you the total movement, and you can adjust the shim pack until you have the minimum .003".

Dial indicators are cheap at Harbor Freight, about $10 for the gauge itself and another $20-30 for a holding jig. I like the vise-grip-mounted segmented "magic arm" they carry, it's the most versatile. Get a digital vernier caliper as well, a 6" one will do, it is an essential tool for measuring things like the thickness of shims. They are less than $20 and pretty accurate. It's not necessary to invest in dial micrometers unless you plan on doing this a lot. You have your machinist do that kind of precision measurement for you; he has the tools and the experience to get accurate measuremets with them, something that requires a bit of practice.
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deprivation
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, totally friggin' amazing stuff here. I'm beginning to think I can do this. Maybe. The real-world explanation of the crank endplay made me realize that however critical this step is, it's actually not that hard. Also, thanks for the info about the feeler-gauge-based measurement tool. I see dial gauges on eBay but I already have plenty of feelers - and the kajigger is only ten bucks. Such a deal.

Anyway, as always thanks and thanks and more thanks. I think I'll be able to get to this task in January. Less yardwork and more garagework!
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, me, I would spend ten bucks on a dial indicator long before I would spend it on a jig I could make for free from bolts'n'junk. But to each his own. It's just that a decent measuring instrument has a million uses, as you will see once you own one, whereas that little jig has only one use.

But the larger point is, yes, you can do this, just be patient, ask questions, don't overlook anything. Machinists and engine builders don't have to be gymnasts or high-wire artists or anything so specialised and concentrated in skill; it's the practices of patient observation, critical thought, and imagination that they cultivate.
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mads-kaa
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the hijack!

The shims for the flywheel are they similar to the type1 or the type4 shims? or are they a seperate breed?

/Mads
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brooklynvanagon
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.bostig.com/files/bostonbob&bostig-proper_wbxflywheel_install.wmv

Video! Wish we had one of an entire rebuild. Probably a few less conversions if so. Funny that Bostig made the video, I guess they care.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brooklynvanagon wrote:
http://www.bostig.com/files/bostonbob&bostig-proper_wbxflywheel_install.wmv

Video! Wish we had one of an entire rebuild. Probably a few less conversions if so. Funny that Bostig made the video, I guess they care.


WOW What a fantastic video!!! I also wish there was more like it out there. I learned a ton!
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mads-kaa wrote:

The shims for the flywheel are they similar to the type1 or the type4 shims? or are they a seperate breed?

/Mads


The two shims that you use to adjust in a 2.1, or all three shims in a 1.9, are the same as the T4 shims, but not the same as T1.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might just have to pay Boston Bod a vist soon, my 500 doller 85 ebay found (locally)vanagon is acting up after 75k hard miles.
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mads-kaa
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
mads-kaa wrote:

The shims for the flywheel are they similar to the type1 or the type4 shims? or are they a seperate breed?

/Mads


The two shims that you use to adjust in a 2.1, or all three shims in a 1.9, are the same as the T4 shims, but not the same as T1.


Thanks a lot!

/Mads
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tclark
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brooklynvanagon wrote:
01
Video! Wish we had one of an entire rebuild. Probably a few less conversions if so.

well that would seem to be a Movie Star role for 10c on his next rebuild Smile lights action roll em Smile


Last edited by tclark on Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forget about it. I only work behind the camera (that's my real job).

Nice video, though, very informative. More of that kind of stuff would be great.

Although if everyone can rebuild their own engine from a video, who will buy one from me? or Bob? or GW, fer chrissakes?

I've reconsidered. This kind of thing must be stopped!
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brooklynvanagon
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I understand it new pistons/liners that are 2.2 are avail run $300 to $350. If you can get higher compression too, that may actually be cost effective in fuel savings. Plus more fun to drive.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:

Although if everyone can rebuild their own engine from a video, who will buy one from me? or Bob? or GW, fer chrissakes?

I've reconsidered. This kind of thing must be stopped!


(I'm going to pretend for a second that I missed the facetious aspect of your comment and pretend that I missed the point because it makes a much better segue)

Knowledge and ability are two different things. I'm never going to rebuild my own engine, as much as the idea appeals to me. However seeing what is involved and understanding the process makes me appreciate all the more the job when it is done right by you, Bob or GW. It also empowers me when I talk to my mechanic. More videos like this would be a great asset to all of us and if it can help keep a few more 20 year old vehicles on the road, all the better.
Come on 10c, I'll bet you could do a better video than Bob.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Come on 10c, I'll bet you could do a better video than Bob.


Considering film production is my day job, I would hope so, but I made a vow to stay behind the camera and I'm keeping it. I wouldn't want the viewers to be distracted by my stunning, chiseled features and tousled surfer hairdo anyway. Might overtorque something and blame me.

On the other hand, I only work with film, and I often say that the average skatepunk knows more about video than I do, so maybe not. If the camera weighed less than 35 pounds I wouldn't know what to do with it.

Quote:
As I understand it new pistons/liners that are 2.2 are avail run $300 to $350. If you can get higher compression too, that may actually be cost effective in fuel savings. Plus more fun to drive.


There are three aftermarket P&L solutions that will give you a displacement increase on a 2.1 (sorry, 1.9'ers, your short crank throw makes upgrading impractical without tearing down and putting in a 2.1 crank).

There's the GW boxed set, excellent quality and a true bolt-on, but expensive at $700. Not a bad deal, though, when you look into what custom pistons cost ($600 at a minimum, and that doesn't get you the oversized cylinder bore). 2200cc but the same CR as stock, actually a bit less with their newest product.

The AA 95.5's, which only put you at 2176cc, but have the wrong compression height in the piston, so CR is lowered a lot, to about 8.3:1. Haven't had these in my hand, so I don't know if there are any other issues.

The QSC 96mm set, very inexpensive, nonetheless good quality pistons and sleeves but many problems with the kit: same comp height problem as the AA's, plus crappy rings that don't fit, and too-long wrist pins. Luckily wrist pins never wear out (tool steel working in bronze and aluminum, which are both much softer), so you can use your old ones. You do need to get new rings, but if you just bolt these on, you get the same crappy low CR and practically no cylinder quench to boot, same as the AA's and the Cofap 94's.

Now Rocky Jennings is offering the QSC's with a set of rods modified with an offset small end bushing that corrects the comp height, and a set of Deves rings that fit right. That makes it into a bolt-on package, but you have to change out the rods as well, not just slam on some pistons. He offers 1.9 or ARP rod bolts. I don't know how much he's charging for this suite of parts, but my guess would be at least $450, likely quite a bit more. This thread has some details and Rocky's link:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=114667&sid=bf7c56dbaab2dadb1b69b27b909f75a3

I took the QSC's and turned their main fault, the low comp height, into an asset by using a longer rod, modified for 24mm pins, and turned down the piston tops to make zero deck. That decreased the piston dish volume to 41.5cc and raised static CR to 9.7:1. Longer rods make for better low-rpm torque as well, although at only one size change (2.5mm) that effect is slight. The increased CR, though, is a great benefit, giving both more torque and better fuel utilisation.
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deprivation
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:

Considering film production is my day job


Really? I started as a loader on CP-16s, Old Arri II's and and 35 BL II's and III's then I moved on to DP. Anything was better than humping 1000-foot mags around all day in the Texas sun. I had a 16 BL and an SR II for years for music videos and commercials. The movie and ad business died here in Houston, though. My wife and I met on a film I was art directing / 2nd unit DP and she was wardrobe/makeup.

This is a hijack, yes, but I'm surprised to find another film person here.
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I could be working for you. I'm still an AC after 17 years. I've done my DP work, low-budget feature, music vids, some docs, etc., but I don't have the ambition to take on all those headaches anymore. I've been almost exclusively in commercials for years and years. The freelancing business gives me the freedom to live as I like, make some money occasionally doing work where I'm respected and well-paid, and continue to work with a bunch of people I really like here in the NM market. We're the big film destination now with our state's tax breaks for production(Albuquerque is now being referred to in the trades as "Tamalewood"), but it hasn't had that much effect on the commercial market. We just keep plugging along as we always have. It's a living.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK this is a total threadjack, but I too work (though not lately) behind the camera. Right now I'm looking to pick up an HDV camera and do some doc work, as well as freelance whatever.

So, I have this idea for a post-apocalyptic road movie in which the remaining inhabitants of the scorched earth are protected by a fleet of templar-like bio-fuel Syncros with mysterious powers capable of disabling the machines of tyranny. NM would be a perfect location.

Seriously though, I'm thrilled to hear that you guys are in the biz, as well as Vanagonauts, gives me hope.

Oh, and good luck with the engine build.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew you guys were cool.

My rig goes out a lot as my camera vehicle on small jobs. I've got a big built-in folding tabletop/cabinet in back, which I can load film on, and I put in the dual-battery system so I can keep batteries charged and run computers if needed. It's a great work vehicle, so much more useful than the crappy Ford cargo van that the smaller productions rent.
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