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Quokka42
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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 Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:45 am Post subject: |
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Actually, that would be more true of gears - fascinating but clearly false "facts" to back a theory. Facts were presented to the contrary, however - so we are back to page 1.
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:12 am Post subject: |
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If you want to get down to it, no "facts"(since experience obviously means nothing) have been presented. Just some printed material put out by suppliers, theories, and opinions. Same as any other lubrication thread.
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76935
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Can someone please some me a picture of all these damaged transaxles from using GL5?
There must be a bone yard somewhere littered with damaged gears.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Can someone please some me a picture of all these damaged transaxles from using GL5 |
No... 
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
Can someone please some me a picture of all these damaged transaxles from using GL5?
There must be a bone yard somewhere littered with damaged gears. |
Moot point really;
If the pro GL4 people are going to say that even photographic proof of damaged transmissions isn't good enough by virture of the fact that the damage was caused by something else, there's nothing stopping us from claiming the same thing in the case of GL5.
Which makes this a fairly useless thread where people pointlessly bitch about oil just like the other one, and not one where we actually learn something about oil.
PROPOSAL
How about a moratorium on bitching about which one works or whether we like one over the other, let's just stick to posting info relevant to both oils, such as API papers, MILSPECS (still up to you to interpret them correctly and without personal bias there wildthings). Let the user decide which is best. YOU ARE THE MECHANIC IN CHARGE.
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Quokka42
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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here here! 
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76935
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| miniman82 wrote: |
PROPOSAL
How about a moratorium on bitching about which one works or whether we like one over the other, let's just stick to posting info relevant to both oils, such as API papers, MILSPECS (still up to you to interpret them correctly and without personal bias there wildthings). Let the user decide which is best. YOU ARE THE MECHANIC IN CHARGE. |
Gary Berg built my transaxle and told me to use Valvoline 80W-90 GL5.... so that's what I use.
I suggest that anyone who buys a new/rebuilt gearbox ask the builder what to use... and use it.
For those that still have their original transaxle you can choose to use what the factory specified 40 years ago, assuming the GL4 you buy today is exactly the same. Or you can opt to use updated lubricants.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
Can someone please some me a picture of all these damaged transaxles from using GL5?
There must be a bone yard somewhere littered with damaged gears. |
I don't think anyone has made the claim that GL5 will damage the gear sets. Please post where I or anyone else has made that claim.
There is no hint that the one gear ruined gear set that has been shown was in any way damaged by GL4 lube. That gear set was obviously badly out of alignment, as bad as I have seen in the dozens and dozens of gear sets I have torn into over the years. The sadly biased poster of those pictures also posted no proof what so ever that the box wasn't full of GL5 verse GL4. As I said you guys are willing to blame any and all failures on GL4 oil. That you people keep claiming those photos support your theories just proves you either know nothing about gear sets or will make any claim no matter how false that supports your bias.
If you want to see ruined synchros go to a rebuilder and ask him why he changes them out. Are the synchros worn beyond reasonable reuse when they get trashed or do rebuilders just changing them out to rip off customers? According to you people ripping customers off must be the reason as the synchros shouldn't be wearing much at all with either GL4 or any brand of GL5 oil.
Will all GL-5 oils damage synchros? Probably not, but most shops out there buy the cheapest oil their suppliers can provide and they don't know or care how the oil does on copper strip tests. I doubt there is a single shop within 25 miles driving of where I am at at present that has every heard of a copper strip test or even knows that classic VW used yellow metal synchros.
Since I supposedly don't know anything about Mil-specs or API(or SAE) specifications please post links to where my claims are not supported by these specifications. |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Since I supposedly don't know anything about Mil-specs or API(or SAE) specifications please post links to where my claims are not supported by these specifications. |
We've already had this discussion, or rather I attempted to educate you and you pushed your head into the sand. I'm sticking by my proposal, I don't care what you like or dislike. Post the info about oils and we'll debate that.
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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VW has been moly coating their synchro rings for well over 30 years now .. ever since cheap-o synthetics first hit the shelf. Moly coated synchros are not adversely affected by any cheap-o gear lubes, regardless of GL rating. So, why are synchros and yellow metals still central to the anti-GL5 argument?
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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sellinmyG
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2012
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by sellinmyG on Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:42 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76935
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| gears wrote: |
| VW has been moly coating their synchro rings for well over 30 years now .. ever since cheap-o synthetics first hit the shelf. Moly coated synchros are not adversely affected by any cheap-o gear lubes, regardless of GL rating. So, why are synchros and yellow metals still central to the anti-GL5 argument? |
You got me.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| gears wrote: |
| VW has been moly coating their synchro rings for well over 30 years now .. ever since cheap-o synthetics first hit the shelf. Moly coated synchros are not adversely affected by any cheap-o gear lubes, regardless of GL rating. So, why are synchros and yellow metals still central to the anti-GL5 argument? |
You got me. |
2x
Since synchronize wear so obviously stopped 30 years ago why are rebuilders still changing them out? Is this some kind of universal conspiracy to rip off vintage VW owners? |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76935
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| gears wrote: |
| VW has been moly coating their synchro rings for well over 30 years now .. ever since cheap-o synthetics first hit the shelf. Moly coated synchros are not adversely affected by any cheap-o gear lubes, regardless of GL rating. So, why are synchros and yellow metals still central to the anti-GL5 argument? |
You got me. |
2x
Since synchronize wear so obviously stopped 30 years ago why are rebuilders still changing them out? Is this some kind of universal conspiracy to rip off vintage VW owners? |
People don't know how to shift.
Also it's cheap insurance to replace the syncros when rebuilding rather than reinstalling them and not have a fully rebuilt tranny and have them be an issue 40,000 miles later.
It's like rebuilding an engine and not replacing the bearings to save a few dollars.
I think most syncros are replaced due to abuse and wear than corrosion from caustic gear lube.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| People don't know how to shift. |
This is the #1 cause of synchro failure. By a huge margin.
| Glenn wrote: |
| Also it's cheap insurance to replace the syncros when rebuilding rather than reinstalling them and not have a fully rebuilt tranny and have them be an issue 40,000 miles later. |
Most customers expect to get new synchros with a rebuild. Even if the original ones are perfect. One of the Cali rebuilders once told me he only uses old used original VW synchros for his own gearboxes. They work way better than the new Brazil parts.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Quokka42
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Synchros should be replaced if they are badly worn - a box that has been used for racing style crash changes will almost always show such wear, with other common causes being the use of inappropriate oil or not changing it when used in severe and/or dusty conditions.
I still don't understand this "moly coated" claim metallic plating would not be useful and molydenum disulphide will react with the metal and not leave any useful coating?
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quokka42 wrote: |
I still don't understand this "moly coated" claim metallic plating would not be useful and molydenum disulphide will react with the metal and not leave any useful coating? |
That coating only applies to Bus 091 Synchros. Type 1 synchros never had any coating.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Robert H
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2014
Posts: 90
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:27 am Post subject: |
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So--not to beat a dead horse, but...
In preparation to changing the transaxle lube on my 65 beetle, I read through a large number of posts on the topic. At the end of all that, I decided to put Redline MT-90 in. What I did not do however, was read the Redline site, where it says that MT-90 is not recommended for hypoid differentials. Is not the final drive in the VW transaxle hypoid gears?
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| Type 1 synchros never had any coating. |
VW dealer replacement 295D synchros for 002 Type I were moly coated in mid '80s. Aftermarket were not.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert H wrote: |
So--not to beat a dead horse, but...
In preparation to changing the transaxle lube on my 65 beetle, I read through a large number of posts on the topic. At the end of all that, I decided to put Redline MT-90 in. What I did not do however, was read the Redline site, where it says that MT-90 is not recommended for hypoid differentials. Is not the final drive in the VW transaxle hypoid gears?
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I would not use an MT rated lube, if that's the only rating on the bottle. Those lubes are for manual transmissions only, and we have transaxles. You have to take into account the fact that we have an R&P in there as well, which requires an oil with EP protection or you can expect your R&P to fail. There was a tag attached to the diff housing on my Corvair that read 'hypoid lube only' which basically means the same thing, if you don't account for the R&P it's not gonna last. GL-4 or GL-5 is called for with hypoid gears, so GL-5 is what I use. I'd rather sacrifice some cheap synchros than an R&P, but the API really need to define how these oils are to be used a little better than they have in the past, that's where all the confusion comes from.
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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