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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
Since synchronize wear so obviously stopped 30 years ago why are rebuilders still changing them out? Is this some kind of universal conspiracy to rip off vintage VW owners? |
I don't understand. Is there somewhere in this thread that someone claimed synchronizers don't mechanically wear out?
The old style non-coated synchros may actually remain functional longer than the newer moly-coated ones (possibly regardless of oil type) .. but I find new moly-coated ones work better, and they probably do for the first 100K.
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| miniman82 wrote: |
| I'd rather sacrifice some cheap synchros than a R&P, and all the other expensive NLA German transmission parts inside the gearbox. |
Fixed it for ya!
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert H wrote: |
... it says that MT-90 is not recommended for hypoid differentials. Is not the final drive in the VW transaxle hypoid gears?
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A Type 1 gearbox uses a spiral bevel gear set for the R&P. A 68 and later Bus uses a hypoid gear set. The difference is that the pinion shaft of the hypoid gear is located below the centerline of the ring gear. It reduces the torque transfer, but makes for a way stronger R&P. The other downside is that a hypoid gear has much higher contact pressures. Because of this, you MUST use a GL-5 oil with hypoid gears. That's what all the gear oil mfrs recommend.
Given that GL-5 is better at handling higher contact pressures, why would you not want this?
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think we are to the point where replacement parts are that hard to come by yet, I mean I can still get a Pro Street 3.88 for right around $700. I'm not gonna start crying till the prices nose over a grand, I just hope that whatever manufacture fills the eventual void is a good one because it sure could snowball in a hurry. Imagine how expensive a trans rebuild would be if the only choice you had was Weddle? 
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| Because of this, you MUST use a GL-5 oil with hypoid gears. That's what all the gear oil mfrs recommend. |
Another fairy tale, just look at the VW owners manual, they recommended GL-4 hypoid oil for low offset hypoid gear sets, as is also recommended by the SAE and the API, and is recommended by many automotive manufacturers today. You have not been able to post one picture of one gear set that has been harmed by GL-4 oil and apparently don't know enough to tell when gear sets have been damaged by having been horridly set up. |
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Quokka42
Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:24 am Post subject: |
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Why do you bother arguing? This is the internet, where people are often not what they claim to be. When self-proclaimed experts make claims like a pinion damaged by excessive end play and/or additives was caused by the recommended lube or that no oil can be too thin for engine applications I just tend to ignore them.
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There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross. |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| ... You have not been able to post one picture of one gear set that has been harmed by GL-4 oil and apparently don't know enough to tell when gear sets have been damaged by having been horridly set up. |
Not sure who you're talking to, Wildthings, as I'm sure Bruce can recognize when R&Ps have been improperly set up. Months ago, someone offers up a poor example of a worn out R&P, and this is somehow proof that no one's ever seen a lube compromised R&P? (How about someone providing a photo of a GL5 compromised brass synchro ring?)
A major company like Redline comes out and says their popular GL4 lubes don't offer enough protection for hypoid R&Ps, and this somehow is irrelevant?
A number of VW transaxle builders have seen negative effects of using GL4 in heavier vans with increased horsepower, and all of those builders recommend GL5 to their racing customers. I personally have seen racing gears that wore out too quickly because some uninformed team installed GL4 rather than GL5.
All of the above suggests to me that GL4 may be barely suitable for stock Vanagons, but certainly isn't adequate for my heavy SVX Syncro camper's transaxle in mountain or long distance driving.
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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VWCOOL
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Ok who has an opinion (or better still, real-world experience) on low-pumping-loss oil for a Type transaxle used for motorsport?
That means, it's not 40,000 miles between services. No towing. No lugging a loaded Kombi up hills. Etc.
Will ATF reduce driveline drag? |
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Robert H
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Joined: January 19, 2014
Posts: 90
Location: Wichita, KS
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| Robert H wrote: |
... it says that MT-90 is not recommended for hypoid differentials. Is not the final drive in the VW transaxle hypoid gears?
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A Type 1 gearbox uses a spiral bevel gear set for the R&P. A 68 and later Bus uses a hypoid gear set. The difference is that the pinion shaft of the hypoid gear is located below the centerline of the ring gear. It reduces the torque transfer, but makes for a way stronger R&P. The other downside is that a hypoid gear has much higher contact pressures. Because of this, you MUST use a GL-5 oil with hypoid gears. That's what all the gear oil mfrs recommend.
Given that GL-5 is better at handling higher contact pressures, why would you not want this? |
Thanks for the response--that is what I was wondering (mine is a 1965 type 1). The only reason I would want to use GL-4 instead of GL-5 is the rumors that some GL-5 lubes may cause accelerated syncronizer wear. |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76947
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert H wrote: |
| The only reason I would want to use GL-4 instead of GL-5 is the rumors that some GL-5 lubes may cause accelerated syncronizer wear. |
Have you read any of the posts here?
today's GL5 does not hurt syncros. I've personally run GL5 for the past 20 year and have not had any syncro corrosion issues.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| You have not been able to post one picture of one gear set that has been harmed by GL-4 oil . |
I think the picture was buried in all those pictures of damaged synchronizers you posted.... 
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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smurfpike
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2010
Posts: 220
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Does anybody run Amsoil Manual Transmission & Transaxle Gear Lube 75W-90 GL-4 in their transmission and front differential on their Syncro? I have bought this and plan on replacing what is currently in it. I run Amsoil for engine oil in all of my cars but haven’t put in in a drivetrain yet. I see a lot of people use Swepco but I get a good deal on Amsoil.
Suggestions?
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/transmission...e=MTGQT-EA
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| bugninva wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| You have not been able to post one picture of one gear set that has been harmed by GL-4 oil . |
I think the picture was buried in all those pictures of damaged synchronizers you posted.... |
While it is fairly easy to tell what damaged a gearset if the gearset hasn't been run until it totally destroyed itself, it is hard to tell what may have caused a synchronizer to wear faster than normal. A synchronizer that has been damaged by running a GL-5 with reactive sulfur is going to look just like any other worn synchro.
| gears wrote: |
| Not sure who you're talking to, Wildthings, as I'm sure Bruce can recognize when R&Ps have been improperly set up. Months ago, someone offers up a poor example of a worn out R&P, and this is somehow proof that no one's ever seen a lube compromised R&P? (How about someone providing a photo of a GL5 compromised brass synchro ring?) |
The someone who offered up the picture was none other than Bruce, so it seems that he can't recognize when a gearset is setup incorrectly. I don't remember any of the other experts here noticing the error until I pointed it out two days later. So much for the rest of the experts here.
| Quote: |
| A major company like Redline comes out and says their popular GL4 lubes don't offer enough protection for hypoid R&Ps, and this somehow is irrelevant? |
Yes Redline came out and said to not run one of their GL-4 lubes and many manufactures of GL-5 lubes say not to run their products in transaxles with brass parts. So what you are saying is to heed an engineer's recommendation only if he agrees with you and to ignore all engineers. I would say to not run Redline's questionable GL-4 lube and not to run a GL-5 lube whose manufacturer says not to run it in one of these transmission and also to not run any GL-5 that scores poorly on the copper strip test or one of the dozens of oils where the copper strip test results can not be found. |
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
While it is fairly easy to tell what damaged a gearset if the gearset hasn't been run until it totally destroyed itself, it is hard to tell what may have caused a synchronizer to wear faster than normal. A synchronizer that has been damaged by running a GL-5 with reactive sulfur is going to look just like any other worn synchro. |
So with all your screaming for others to provide "proof" of their claims, you are saying your claim can't be proven but could happen? Wow.... just wow. And you accuse others of spreading "fairy tales". Are you the proverbial pot or the kettle?
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| gears wrote: |
| Not sure who you're talking to, Wildthings, as I'm sure Bruce can recognize when R&Ps have been improperly set up. Months ago, someone offers up a poor example of a worn out R&P, and this is somehow proof that no one's ever seen a lube compromised R&P? (How about someone providing a photo of a GL5 compromised brass synchro ring?) |
The someone who offered up the picture was none other than Bruce, so it seems that he can't recognize when a gearset is setup incorrectly. I don't remember any of the other experts here noticing the error until I pointed it out two days later. |
That R&P in the photo was setup by VW of Germany. So I guess you're now saying that VW doesn't know how to build a gearbox?
How do you know that gearbox didn't have a bearing failure?
Tell us, how many gearboxes have you been inside?
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| miniman82 wrote: |
| I don't think we are to the point where replacement parts are that hard to come by yet, |
Are you kidding??
The reason the price of gearboxes is still low is because replacement parts are now being made in China. You should see what crap they make.
Here's an example. The first late reverse idler gears I saw from China had a strange surface finish. On closer inspection, I found it was PAINTED to prevent rust. I wonder what other stupid things are done during the manufacture of parts. How long are these parts going to live?
| Wildthings wrote: |
| You have not been able to post one picture of one gear set that has been harmed by GL-4 oil . |
Every gearbox I open up has parts showing extreme wear due to inferior oil. Wear that could be prevented using oil with a higher extreme pressure rating.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
How do you know that gearbox didn't have a bearing failure?
Tell us, how many gearboxes have you been inside? |
Pretty disingenious of you to post that the wear was a problem with the lube and now imply that it was a problem with the bearings. 
I have stated before how many gearsets I have set up, if you really want to know then search my back posts.
| Quote: |
Every gearbox I open up has parts showing extreme wear due to inferior oil. Wear that could be prevented using oil with a higher extreme pressure rating. |
Since you and/or your supporters have claimed that most of these boxes are run on GL-5 oil most of the time, you are actually condemning GL-5 oil. As I have said before the 4 ball wear test numbers for GL-4 oils are typically the same or better than for GL-5 oils (the GL-4 numbers come from manufacturers while the GL-5 numbers come from independent testing so no guaranty this is an apples for apples comparison). For what it is worth every gear box of any make and model that I have ever opened up showed gear wear to some extent, whether it was run on hydraulic oil, ATF, motor oil, GL-4, Gl-5, or some $100 a gallon proprietary oil mix. |
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VWCOOL
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
Ok who has an opinion (or better still, real-world experience) on low-pumping-loss oil for a Type transaxle used for motorsport?
That means, it's not 40,000 miles between services. No towing. No lugging a loaded Kombi up hills. Etc.
Will ATF reduce driveline drag? |
Bueller... Bueller.. Bueller... |
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Other than the infamous Mario G, I have never seen someone purposely twist someone's words as much as wild things does. Amazing!
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| The first late reverse idler gears I saw from China had a strange surface finish. On closer inspection, I found it was PAINTED to prevent rust. I wonder what other stupid things are done during the manufacture of parts. How long are these parts going to live? |
So they don't use cosmoline, paint might actually be easier to remove...
You know people used to say the same thing about Japan at one point, now look at them. I think with enough time, Chinese parts could be high quality. I have a Chinese crank in my 1915 turbo, it was very high quality. It's only a matter of time, really.
| Quote: |
| Every gearbox I open up has parts showing extreme wear due to inferior oil. Wear that could be prevented using oil with a higher extreme pressure rating. |
How would either of you know which oil was to blame, if in fact the failure was oil related? Was the oil analyzed, were any test conducted on it? Is it even possible to tell the difference between GL-4 and 5 after it's been in used? 
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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