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GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic"
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mine runs out almost as fast as I can pour it in the steering box. so.....I mixed up a batch of synthetic wheelbearing grrreeeesseee and some 90wt and filled it with that.not driping,seems to work just fine .that was many years ago. the reason you dont just use greessee is the greessee will squish out of the way of the moving parts when they move....it will then nolonger be incontact with the parts it's supposed to be protecting/lubricating. synthetic greessee is thin any way and mixed with gearlube to make a thick gear lube type of lube keeps it from leeking but still seems to do it's job just fine. I bought a new trw box back in 05 after I did this......I still have the new box on the shelf.
now back to the trans lube stuff... I changed my trans lube yeaterday.the trans seemed to lock up last week in low gear...like something was between the teeth it skided the rear tires for about 1 sec.then released(about 5mph), no other noise just tire squeel/chirp. so I changed the lube to see whats up.....not much at all,just normal super fine funk on magnet,little,very little as in few metalic peices in the botton of the drain pan. oil was almost black.not sure why the gearlube turns black(sliping 3&4th hubs??).but as I recall that trans was all funkey inside when I changed out the side cover&1 side bearing.. but what I did not see was a reason for the tire chirp. Im thinking about a trip up to knoxvill,dont have a spair trans or the want to change it out right now(shop is full of racecar&machines,it's hot outside) Ive beat on this used trans for about 4years now...yes it's about time for a change.the trans I want in the car needs a mainshaft bearing(at the least)but I have yet to dig into vw trans.I have the jig,need the socket&whatever else...and know how.(know how to do everything it needs and it work first time out). I do have another 412 trans thats been redone with superdiff&other mods,but dont realy want to stick a 412gear back in it. think Ill go flog it today and see if I need to change it..... Shocked I realy hate working on my car.
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Herrbern
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what is the difference between GL-4 and GL-4+ ?

Is this GL-4+ OK for a bug transmission ?
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if chainsaw bar lube is ok for vw transmissions.......it's stickyty and clings,climbs.synthetic dosent.well not somuch.I remember using moroso climbing gear lube in the race cars&other performance stuff trans&ring&pinion. I didnt have any the last time I changed gear lube so I use the bar oil... Shocked WTF it's a vw. well it seems to be just fine.no I didnt fill it with bar oil.just a few ounces witch gives it a little sticketyness to the synthetic gearlube I use. it also seems to cushen the gear lash noise(lash as in everything not just ring gear) the trans is quiet but you dont hear the klank of on&off the power like straight thin synthetic gear lube did. and shifts the same.
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24dakota24
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would this be good to use for my'74 bus transmission?
Here is the description:
Valvoline/High performance gear oil SAE 80W-90 1 gal.

Valvoline s High Performance Gear Oil is a thermally stable, extreme-pressure gear lubricant that withstands severe temperatures and shock loading while providing excellent anti-wear, anti-scuffing and corrosion protection.
Recommended for all hypoid differentials (conventional & limited slip) and manual transmission in passenger cars, light trucks, sport utility vehicles, vans & heavy-duty trucks where an API-GL5 or MT-1 fluid is specified
High speed, high torque & high horsepower conditions
An extreme pressure gear lubricant designed for a wide range of applications
Thermal protection provides outstanding thermal stability for cleanliness and longer service life
Product Details
Part Number: VV832
Weight: 7.85 lbs
Weight: Oil Viscosity 80W-90
Container Type: Bottle
Flash Point (°F): 432
Oil Composition: Conventional
Oil Type: Gearbox
Package Size (oz): 128.0
Pour Point: -30
Recommended Application: Light duty gear oil application
SAE Oil Weight: 80W90
Standards: API SERVICES GL-5, GL-4. CHECK OWNER S MANUAL FOR API SERVICE AND VISCOSITY REQUIREMENTS.
Shipping Information: Overnight and Two Day shipping are not available for PO Box, APO/FPO/DPO or US Territory addresses.
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gears
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that would be a good oil to use.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

24dakota24 wrote:
Would this be good to use for my'74 bus transmission?
Here is the description:
Valvoline/High performance gear oil SAE 80W-90 1 gal.

That's what I use.

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VolkswagenVMan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glen I agree with you!!!! They still use brass parts in the new VW manual trans. They run GL-5 in them and the only time I have had to rebuild them at the dealer is when someone abuses them. My New Beetle 5 speed has over 200,000 miles on it and I had no brass filings in it and I change the trans fluid every 50,000 miles. I would have to agree on GL-5 not causing harm to the brass parts in a manual trans. Just my opinion from what I have seen in a shop for over 15 years. Do I run GL-5 in my air-cooled Bugs? Yes I do and I have not had any issues there either.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ Thank you for posting this information.
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24dakota24
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the response, i'm sure I will have more questions as the project continues!
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VolkswagenVMan wrote:
Glen I agree with you!!!! They still use brass parts in the new VW manual trans. They run GL-5 in them and the only time I have had to rebuild them at the dealer is when someone abuses them. My New Beetle 5 speed has over 200,000 miles on it and I had no brass filings in it and I change the trans fluid every 50,000 miles. I would have to agree on GL-5 not causing harm to the brass parts in a manual trans. Just my opinion from what I have seen in a shop for over 15 years. Do I run GL-5 in my air-cooled Bugs? Yes I do and I have not had any issues there either.


Try a GL-5 oil that rates a 3 or 4 on the copper strip test and then get back to us.
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bugninva
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
VolkswagenVMan wrote:
Glen I agree with you!!!! They still use brass parts in the new VW manual trans. They run GL-5 in them and the only time I have had to rebuild them at the dealer is when someone abuses them. My New Beetle 5 speed has over 200,000 miles on it and I had no brass filings in it and I change the trans fluid every 50,000 miles. I would have to agree on GL-5 not causing harm to the brass parts in a manual trans. Just my opinion from what I have seen in a shop for over 15 years. Do I run GL-5 in my air-cooled Bugs? Yes I do and I have not had any issues there either.


Try a GL-5 oil that rates a 3 or 4 on the copper strip test and then get back to us.

LOL, just like Mario!
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Quokka42
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, you wouldn't expect filings in the oil from corrosion - look for green or black on the parts or in the oil.
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as for me ive never seen anything but brass syncor rings in trans execpt fro motorcycle/4wheeler stuff.
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Frank Bassman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just put a rebuilt transmission in my bug and am going to change the oil in it to rid it of any initial break-in shavings. What's the word on Lucas Oil 80/90 weight? And also what about the synthetic version of the Vavoline 80/90 that is talked about here? Thanks in advance for the input!
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wilbur
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GL-5 CHECK!
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

about the only thing lucas has thats good is that stuff.and I think they copied (re botteled)it from moroso's climbing gear lube. and thus made a lot of $$$ and now have all kinds of stuff.some dont work, some do harm,some I havent tried. I dont know if moroso still hjas thier climbing gearlube or not, or if it is rebottled lucas or what. but it was good stuff,but not synethic, I wish it was....or possiably mix with syn to thin it out a bit& easyer faster shifts. Ive wonderd about the synthetic gearlubes ,they dont climb the gears and thus the upper bearings dont get a lot of lube....wonder if thats a possiable cause for main shaft bearing issues.... a stickey thiner climbing syn gearlube would be real nice. I wonder what the nascar guys use....but they also change gears every race.,but at those speeds the gear needs to be climbing so it will cool the pinion bearings...although they also use a pump so......it's probably not climbing lube .
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RichardLW
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just discovered this site and topic, and need to step in, as I read (although not all of the pages) many myths and suggestions that are more opinion and belief in marketing than fact.

In one post someone mentioned GL-6 and it being an industrial gear oil not available. Not so. It is automotive (hence the SAE and API ratings). It cannot officially be tested as the test equipment (Oldsmobile Toronado differential) is no longer available. It was developed for the extreme angles of the Toronado and the high torque of the Mustang once upon a time. I sell lots of it for truck differentials, and Nissan pickups where it is spec'd (although technically "obsolete").

There is a huge difference between GL-4 and GL-5 when it comes to transmissions. GL-5 has twice the sulfur/phos additive. It grabs the synchronizers so well that when you shift instead of sliding off (as it would steel gears), it peels off a micron or two of brass. A micron may not seem like much, but 80 of them make the width of a human hair. It adds up.

Forget the discussions about corrosion caused by the sulfur. It has been buffered in all brands for 20 to 30 years. Dead argument. We are worried about it peeling the brass off the teeth. I have lots of worn synchronizers to show that. Those who say their GL-5 will not corrode brass are right. but it will peel it.

Someone said Swepco stopped using sulfur years ago in their GL-5. False. Maybe they stopped putting it on the spec sheet, but it is there.

Someone referred to my paper on GL-4 vs GL5. You can use this link that will take you there with a small introduction: http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Transaxle.html or skip to the pdf: http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf

This paper gets about 15,000 to 17,000 downloads a month. I will be updating it when I get one more test result in, as I am in the process of documenting the reduction of copper wear (from the brass) in manual transmissions by 700% through a switch from GL-5 to GL-4. I've got more than 60,000 miles documented so far in MB interstate buses with brass synchronizers.

The simple question most people still ask (yes, I get an email or two a day) is why isn't a GL-4/GL-5 a GL-4 for transmissions. And the simple answer is the GL categories only look at wear protection. They do not look at synchronizer protection.

Another suggestion I saw was modern day MTF. Those are great products, but much too "thin" for any transmission that recommended 80W-90, which is all of the VW "Bugs", "Petas" "Fuscas" "Combies", etc.

Someone talked about the need to use higher GL protection to protect the scarce parts. Bad argument. The GL-5 will damage brass, and not offer more protection to the gears than you need, unless you have mated your VW transmission to a 300 hp engine.

As a side note, in viscosity, SAE 90 is a huge range, and can vary enormously between brands. 80W-90 is a well defined monograde at the low end of the range. 85W-90 is a well defined monograde at the top end of the range. These are SAE gear oil viscosities.

For anyone who cannot find the GL-4, 80W-90; or wants something with NO Sulfur/phos, an excellent choice is Caterpillar spec TO-4 SAE 50 (on the SAE Engine viscosity scale, which is the same as an 80W-90 on the gear oil scale).
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichardLW wrote:

Someone talked about the need to use higher GL protection to protect the scarce parts. Bad argument. The GL-5 will damage brass, and not offer more protection to the gears than you need, unless you have mated your VW transmission to a 300 hp engine.


In checking published 4 ball wear test results, GL-4 and GL-5 oils typically have about the same numbers, sometimes GL-4 oils are even better than GL-5 oils. (Note that most GL-4 numbers I have seen are supplied by the manufacturer and most GL-5 numbers are supplied by others, so not quite apples to apples.)

Would like to hear your opinions on this.
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RichardLW
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
RichardLW wrote:

Someone talked about the need to use higher GL protection to protect the scarce parts. Bad argument. The GL-5 will damage brass, and not offer more protection to the gears than you need, unless you have mated your VW transmission to a 300 hp engine.


In checking published 4 ball wear test results, GL-4 and GL-5 oils typically have about the same numbers, sometimes GL-4 oils are even better than GL-5 oils. (Note that most GL-4 numbers I have seen are supplied by the manufacturer and most GL-5 numbers are supplied by others, so not quite apples to apples.)

Would like to hear your opinions on this.


Tests often show the same result. Much depends on the testing conditions and how applicable they are to real world. Also take into consideration that sulfur/phos is heat activated, so at lower temps you are peeling off yesterday's coating. At high contact point temps you are causing the formation of more sacrificial coatings as you wear off some.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of your suggested oils are readily available here - what do you think of this one? http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdfs/PRO%20GEAR%2075W-85%20AUGUST%202013.pdf
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