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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76908
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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 Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| RichardLW wrote: |
Just because you rebuild transmissions (or engines) doesn't mean you know what oil to put in them.
I know of dozens, if not hundreds, who have no idea, including dealerships.
And I've been told by some that if they put in the best oil, or recommended the best oil, they'd be out of business, as they need the repeat business.
There is a real world out here. |
Must be difficult being smarter than everyone else.
Whatever shred of credibility you had is gone in my book. Maybe the Corvair guys will take your word over that of many well know professionals that have stellar reputations. But i'll stick with what works for me and who i've done business with for 40 years.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Richard .. The reason you have lost credibility here is that you were invited to share photos specific to the issue you are preaching, and instead you showed us 1) a gear on the verge of temperature-related failure .. one that was running WELL in excess of temperatures in which a bare brass synchro ring would suffer regardless of the type of oil used, and 2) a second photo clearly showing a cracked component. It seems that your "examples" so far are rigged.
Your paper seems to have been written to placate customers who request what you don't wish to inventory, and certainly isn't based on the "science" that your fans keep referring to.
So for the 3rd time, please tell us more about the MB transmissions on which you are basing your "research". Perhaps we can help shed some light on your OVERHEATING problem.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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RichardLW
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2014
Posts: 20
Location: Santa Cruz, Bolivia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure how you have gotten those impressions, but I will try to clear up a few of your misconceptions.
-I posted some pics from my laptop. I have more at the office on the server, but had no access over the weekend and have been extremely busy these days, spending 95% of the weekend and yesterday on a major web-site update.
-Yes, no denying one of those had heat problems. That is one of the things caused by GL-5. There are more, but I have will get to them in time.
-The paper was written entirely to get people to understand how much damage can be done by GL-5 to synchronizers. The evidence is there, and I've seen it way to often to just let it go. We spend good money on classic cars and need to protect them. Nothing is "rigged".
-I don't need to placate customers for product I don't keep in inventory. I am the one who carries inventory of all the various needed transmission fluids. I wish I could lie like others and say it doesn't matter. I'd have an easier time with inventory and make more money. My conscience does not let me pass on that.
-I enjoy hearing from customers who are thrilled at how mush easier their cars shift after getting rid of the GL-5.
-I will have a lot more to say about the MB study, the years of the equipment, more analysis, etc.
-I certainly don't claim to be smarter than everyone, or many. But I know more about lubrication than 90+% of the population. I live in a real world and see real problems every day. Many people have good intentions with what they do and believe they are right, or know everything.
Sorry you don't understand my point of view and experience.
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Restoration in Bolivia
Richard's Corvair
Selection of the right transmission oil for the corvair
How to polish and restore stainless and aluminum trim |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76908
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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So should we assume that you sell what you make the most profit on? And that you promote GL4 in the hopes that it creates more business for you?
After all, you are assuming that's what all the VW shops do.
Makes you think..... 
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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RichardLW
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2014
Posts: 20
Location: Santa Cruz, Bolivia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
So should we assume that you sell what you make the most profit on? And that you promote GL4 in the hopes that it creates more business for you?
After all, you are assuming that's what all the VW shops do.
Makes you think..... |
No, profit per item is not even considered. Every vehicle gets the best technical recommendation. I actually make less on GL-4 than GL-5 (had to look that up).
And I have not assumed VW shops do that. Not sure where that comment comes from.
_________________
Restoration in Bolivia
Richard's Corvair
Selection of the right transmission oil for the corvair
How to polish and restore stainless and aluminum trim |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76908
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| RichardLW wrote: |
| And I have not assumed VW shops do that. Not sure where that comment comes from. |
From here:
| RichardLW wrote: |
| And I've been told by some that if they put in the best oil, or recommended the best oil, they'd be out of business, as they need the repeat business. |
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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RichardLW
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2014
Posts: 20
Location: Santa Cruz, Bolivia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| RichardLW wrote: |
| And I have not assumed VW shops do that. Not sure where that comment comes from. |
From here:
| RichardLW wrote: |
| And I've been told by some that if they put in the best oil, or recommended the best oil, they'd be out of business, as they need the repeat business. |
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That does not identify VW shops, but some repair shops. Actually there are no VW only shops around here. One of the Ford dealerships insists that oil is oil, puts 15W-40 instead of 5W-20 in engines, and says it does not matter as long as it makes it to the 100,000 km warranty.
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Restoration in Bolivia
Richard's Corvair
Selection of the right transmission oil for the corvair
How to polish and restore stainless and aluminum trim |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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No one in this thread has ever seen damage in a VW transaxle due to use of GL-5. On the other hand, I have seen damage to Type II R&Ps that relied on GL-4, as has every major VW shop in the U.S. Changing to GL-5 solves those premature wear problems.
There are perhaps hundreds of VW and/or Porsche transaxle rebuilding shops in the U.S., and virtually all the best known ones recommend using GL-5, even though some GL-4 oils provide smoother shifting. Please invite one that recommends GL-4 to the discussion.
VW Germany didn't feel compelled to notify all old Bug owners (after the cheap-ass oil companies improved their additive packages) that it was once again safe to use "hypoid" or GL-5 oils. They'd already changed the composition of their replacement synchronizers to deal with reactive sulfur-containing gear lubes (PRIOR to 1980 models), and they didn't cater much to owners of old VWs.
The only synchro ring that remains bare brass in MOST transmissions and transaxles is top gear, and ONLY because the bean counters can save $3 (the wear on 4th gear synchro is perhaps 25% that of 3rd gear synchro).
In 40 years I've never heard of any VW transaxle that had to be rebuilt for the sake of worn synchro rings alone .. certainly not GL-5 damaged synchros.
That fried gear was NOT the result of using GL-5. But it looks real good to "prove your point" to the layman ..
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: transmission fluid |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
That is almost like getting no information as both GL4 and GL5 are hypoid gear lubes. Read the bottles: |
Please explain your point since i'm missing where your posting a Syntheric when "no synthetics" was specified makes one. |
My post didn't say a word about synthetics, please point it out for me if you can find it in my post. What I said and showed links to prove was that both GL4 and GL5 oils are hypoid gear oils, this is regardless if they dino or synthetic. |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17285
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| RichardLW wrote: |
| -Yes, no denying one of those had heat problems. That is one of the things caused by GL-5. |
The opposite is more likely. GL-4's lower EP rating allowed metal-to-metal contact, and that is what generates heat.
| RichardLW wrote: |
| to get people to understand how much damage can be done by GL-5 to synchronizers. |
There you go again, worried about $40 worth of parts when the cost of everything else in the gearbox is so much more expensive. Here's one for you: If you needed a 3.88 for your Berg 5, it will set you back more than $500.
| RichardLW wrote: |
| . We spend good money on classic cars and need to protect them. |
Finally, we agree on something!! We need to protect them as best as we can. With gear oil that's got the best extreme pressure rating.
| RichardLW wrote: |
| -I enjoy hearing from customers who are thrilled at how mush easier their cars shift after getting rid of the GL-5. |
Most likely any improvement in shifting was due to changing the gear oil that's been in the gearbox since the previous century.
I see it all the time here on the samba and in the local VW community. Ask any VW owner when the last time the gear oil was changed. The most common answer is, "I don't know." A friend asked me to look at his real '58 Speedster because it was hard to shift. I asked him when was the last time the oil was changed. He said it had the same oil that was in it when he got the car in the 80s.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76908
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:09 am Post subject: Re: transmission fluid |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
That is almost like getting no information as both GL4 and GL5 are hypoid gear lubes. Read the bottles: |
Please explain your point since i'm missing where your posting a Syntheric when "no synthetics" was specified makes one. |
My post didn't say a word about synthetics, please point it out for me if you can find it in my post. What I said and showed links to prove was that both GL4 and GL5 oils are hypoid gear oils, this is regardless if they dino or synthetic. |
You posted 2 links, one was GL4 and the other a synthetic gear lube when he was told NO SYNTHETICS.
Maybe you should examine the links you post first.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76908
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| If you needed a 3.88 for your Berg 5, it will set you back more than $500. |
He doesn't know because he's a Corvair guy that doesn't own a VW, work on a VW or even know who the Bergs are.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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RichardLW
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2014
Posts: 20
Location: Santa Cruz, Bolivia
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Most likely any improvement in shifting was due to changing the gear oil that's been in the gearbox since the previous century.
I see it all the time here on the samba and in the local VW community. Ask any VW owner when the last time the gear oil was changed. The most common answer is, "I don't know." A friend asked me to look at his real '58 Speedster because it was hard to shift. I asked him when was the last time the oil was changed. He said it had the same oil that was in it when he got the car in the 80s. |
Often it is people who have less then two weeks on the current oil. I experienced it myself when my 1999 4Runner had the transmission oil changed at 20,000 km by the dealer, using Shell GL-5 before I left on a 700 km trip through the mountains to my other office. Shifts had gotten noticeably harder. The day after I got there I changed it out for GL-4 and within a couple of days it was back to factory-effort.
_________________
Restoration in Bolivia
Richard's Corvair
Selection of the right transmission oil for the corvair
How to polish and restore stainless and aluminum trim |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:36 am Post subject: Re: transmission fluid |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
That is almost like getting no information as both GL4 and GL5 are hypoid gear lubes. Read the bottles: |
Please explain your point since i'm missing where your posting a Syntheric when "no synthetics" was specified makes one. |
My post didn't say a word about synthetics, please point it out for me if you can find it in my post. What I said and showed links to prove was that both GL4 and GL5 oils are hypoid gear oils, this is regardless if they dino or synthetic. |
You posted 2 links, one was GL4 and the other a synthetic gear lube when he was told NO SYNTHETICS.
Maybe you should examine the links you post first. |
I didn't recommend any oils I just pointed out that both GL-4 oils and GL-5 oils were both hypoid gear lubes and linked 2 examples that showed that to be true. I don't care if he runs synthetics or dino oils, that makes little or no difference in my book when it comes to gear oil, so make up anything you want, as usual you have no meaningful point to make.
| Quote: |
| He doesn't know because he's a Corvair guy that doesn't own a VW, work on a VW or even know who the Bergs are. |
Proof to what I just said above, no meaningful point to make. |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| RichardLW wrote: |
| .. <snip>.. my 1999 4Runner had the transmission oil changed at 20,000 km by the dealer, using Shell GL-5 before I left on a 700 km trip through the mountains to my other office. Shifts had gotten noticeably harder. The day after I got there I changed it out for GL-4 and within a couple of days it was back to factory-effort. |
Well, Richard .. you've hit on the quandary facing guys who rebuild (or sell rebuilt) VW transaxles. Do we recommend the smoothest-shifting oil (Redline MTL & MT-90), or do we recommend the most protective oil. Too large a percentage of the population thinks the transmission is that stick that you have to shift back & forth, and the smoother it moves, the "better" the oil must be.
I have to hand it to Redline Corporation for their honesty .. after decades of recommending their excellent GL-4 oils for use in VW vans, they've backed away from their recommendation. Here are two of the bullets on their web page:
* Excellent gear and synchro protection, balanced slipperiness for easier shifting in cold climates
* MTL, MT-85 & MT-90 are not for use in differentials with hypoid gears
I understand that the odd Redline "technician" will still recommend these two oils to van owners because "Oh .. VWs don't have much of a hypoid offset. Go ahead and use this product." This is just one more example of very limited VW-specific knowledge. The 10mm hypoid offset in a small Type II R&P is proportionally larger than the same 10mm offset in a Porsche GT3 R&P. So, it's not some insignificant amount.
Redline corporation finally learned what we transaxle builders had to learn the hard way. Isn't it odd that the oldest and most respected VW trans shops in the U.S. have independently come to the same conclusions? For maximum R&P protection, use non-synthetic GL-5 gear lube. For Granny's Bug, use whatever floats your boat.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76908
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:07 am Post subject: |
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When i got my tranny back from Gary Berg he specifically said not to use Red Line and he will not warranty any parts if i did.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Amsoil 80w-90
APPLICATIONS:
AMSOIL 80W-90 Synthetic Gear Lube is recommended for use under various combinations of high-speed, shock loads, low speeds and high torque conditions. It is recommended for use in all light and heavy-duty, automotive, commercial or industrial applications requiring SAE 80W-90 EP gear lube. AMSOIL 80W-90 Synthetic Gear Lube replaces all conventional 80W-90 gear oils and exceeds the lubrication and performance requirements of front and rear differentials, transfer cases, transaxles, manual transmissions, s oil lubricated wheel bearings, and steering gear boxes that require any of the following specifications:
API GL-5 & MT-1
MIL-PRF-2105E
Dana SHAES 234 (Formerly Eaton PS-037) for 250,000 miles
MACK GO-J
Arvin/Meritor 0-76D plus hypoid gear oil specifications from all domestic and foreign manufacturers such as GM, Ford and Daimler Chrysler.
Can also be used rear axles where API Service GL-4 lubricant is recommended.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| When i got my tranny back from Gary Berg he specifically said not to use Red Line and he will not warranty any parts if i did. |
My list of poor choices includes Redline and the above spam oil.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| gears wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| When i got my tranny back from Gary Berg he specifically said not to use Red Line and he will not warranty any parts if i did. |
My list of poor choices includes Redline and the above spam oil. |
Plenty of spam oils out their but Amsoil isn't one of them unfortunately. To many have used it for years successfully and without ill effect.
Want spam gear oil start with Sta-lube.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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BeetleUy
Samba Member
Joined: February 04, 2013
Posts: 156
Location: Uruguay
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Hi, the oil i use has the following description:
- It has additives for EP;
- API: GL-5, MIL-L-2105D, ZF TE- ML 05A, 07A, 08,
12A, 12E, 16B-D, 17B, 19B, MAN 342 M-1 Y M-2 y Volvo 1273.10.
Is it ok for my vw? It does not say MT-1
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VW beetle - 1986 - 1600 dp
H30/31 - SVDA
7.9:1 CR |
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