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LivinInnaVWBus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 968
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 Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| mrcool wrote: |
This is an exhausting read.
I was finally convinced its ok to move to synthetic. not entirely convinced on how to pick the correct GL5 yet.
What is an acceptable sulfur content for GL-5?
Valvoline VV831 has how much?
I did not see that the MSDS report had this info but I now know a fathead minnow can live in water for at least 96 hours with a concentration of 100mg/l of this oil in it.  |
I put VV831 and a bottle of STP in my original non-rebuilt 68' bus trans about 600-800 hundred miles ago. Shifts flawlessly with no issues to report. |
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mrcool
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2015
Posts: 358
Location: Bozeman, MT
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:15 am Post subject: |
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We'll its good that it has withstood the test of time at 800 miles 
I'll have to look into the STP treatment, hopefully there is 45 more pages to read on that.
So one more observation:
The pi sheet for Valvoline high performance gear oil that wildthings just brought up (btw I've liked where your head has been this whole read)..
http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/high_performance_gear.pdf
I am reading this as - if you want to use GL4 you need to use
- Valvoline Professional Series Manual Transmission Fluid
or
- Valvoline Synchro mesh Manual Transmission Fluid
But either of the GL5 are fine for synchronized manual transmissions?
But for this particular line of their high performance gear oil you should actually use GL5 and NOT the GL4? This would disagree with the moderators summary. To be honest I think the moderators summary is not painting the whole picture. For instance Red Line would be another exception. The question is much deeper than GL4 or GL5 as red line proved. So it seems like the standard that categorizes GL4 or GL5 ratings is not what determines the correct gear oil?
So really what we need to solve (I have no friggen clue) is what is it that makes a good gear oil for our gear box. Well... you got me. Is it the EP content that matters? The question I need to understand. Is GL5 (and what GL5) is really going to save my NLA parts in the tranny?
Shit... I can't think, so much garbage to sift through in this thread. Someone referenced it as mental masturbation. Not sure if thats correct, things that involve masturbation are usually pleasing and have a definitive satisfying outcome |
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Boolean
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012
Posts: 1712
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:55 am Post subject: |
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You have a hypoid gearbox. Use hypoid oil for yor box according to the manufacturers recommendation.
I use 75W90, and have done so since those came to FLAPS 30 years ago.
No issues.
Hypoid transaxles are basically the same today as they were 60 years ago, but oils are much better.
_________________
I strive for perfection. Excellence will not be tolerated!
Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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mrcool
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2015
Posts: 358
Location: Bozeman, MT
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:21 am Post subject: |
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If we are getting nitpicky I don't think just Hypoid gear oil is the best thing to look for. I was just told that Valvoline High-Performance 80W-90 Gear Oil, the VV831 everyone keeps going on about, should not be used with my 1983. This is a hypoid gear oil with GL5 rating. See below.
From Valvoline themselves:
My Question:
| Quote: |
| I am looking for the correct gear/transmission oil. Car: 1983 VW Vanagon 2.0L (cv) engine - manual trans. Manual suggests GL4 (probably out dated) According to the PI I cannot use a GL4 due to the yellow metal syncros. How come I cannot use the GL4 formula? I have been looking at the Valvoline VV831 80W90. Is this GL5 and MT-1? Is this suitable? Thanks for your help! |
Valvoline response:
| Quote: |
Will, thank you for contacting Valvoline Product Support with your transmission fluid questions.
The correct fluid for your manual transmission will be our Valvoline Synchromesh fluid (part number 811095). This will be an API GL-4 rated gear fluid, safe for use on soft yellow metals. Our current gear oils (75w-90, 75w-140, etc.) carry a GL-5 rating, which have active sulfates that will attack yellow metals, so we are unable to recommend these. |
Now I get the theory of your $50 syncros are nothing compared to NLA parts. But! I am asking if GL5 would protect those any more than GL4. If syncros are going to be the cause of a rebuild and GL4 will save your other parts just fine then I will go with GL4.
---------------------
liqui moly
Question:
| Quote: |
| Hello, Can you please recommend a gear oil for: 1983 VW Vanagon. 2.0L aircooled (CV engine) - Hypoid gear with yellow metal syncros. Manual suggests GL4 80w90 but that may be dated. Thanks for your help! |
Response:
| Quote: |
Thank you very much for your technical e- mail and your interest about Liqui- Moly Products.
You must observe the required spezification from the manufacturer.
For example:
GL 4 80W - 90 , or VW G 50 - you can use High Performance Gear Oil GL 4+ SAE 75W- 90 part. no. 4434 1 Liter
Attached you find the suitable productinformation.
4433 = 500 ml |
Last edited by mrcool on Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LivinInnaVWBus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 968
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:23 am Post subject: |
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mrcool: After second guessing my gear lube selection and nearly pulling it out to replace it with Valvoline Synchromesh, I realized the only other lube I could find locally would be no name brands so I took the advise of people who know much more than I do in this regard.
First was Rancho Transaxles, then Glenn and finally Gary Berg. If these guys OK and use it, I'm sure it will work in my transmission just as well.
This is my daily driver and only vehicle, I put that many miles on it the past two weeks so in the unlikely situation it's going to fail on me, you'll know soon. |
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mrcool
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2015
Posts: 358
Location: Bozeman, MT
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:37 am Post subject: |
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I totally get that. I have a feeling that whatever I use it will be fine. Most likely my transmission will outlast my engine at this point. I think this thread is a sick joke wildthings and glenn are putting on to see how many people they can get in the heads of haha. Well they got me.
I do not like "oh hey look at my transmission, it works great." That is not a satisfying response. If I am wondering out from the factory recommendation I need evidence. Right now I need to find evidence that GL5 will actually reduce wear on the other gears. There is no point in putting GL5 in if it won't reduce wear on the NLA gears and hurt the OEM-never rebuilt syncros.
Yes, it is a huge pain trying to find any other gear oil. But that isn't really a good reason not to switch out your gear oil...
The most accessible one that meets the specfication of our VW manual is Sta-Lube SL24239 API/GL-4 Multi-Purpose Hypoid Gear Oil on amazon (prime):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000M8RYMC/ref=ox...PDKIKX0DER |
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mrcool
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2015
Posts: 358
Location: Bozeman, MT
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Update from Valvoline after the recommended use of Synchromesh fluid
Follow up question:
| Quote: |
| I was recommended the Valvoline Synchromesh fluid for my 1983 VW vangagon. Lets say I was to ignore the fact that GL5 is harsh on yellow metals and use GL5. Would this make sure the other parts in my case do not wear out better than GL4? |
Response:
| Quote: |
| GL-5 rated gear oils are suitable for use in non synchronized transmissions. Both the GL-4 and GL-5 will provide about the same levels of protection within the transmission. However, if a GL-5 rated fluid is used where there are soft metals, Valvoline will not be held liable for any damages done. The only fluid suitable that we will recommend for use if the Valvoline Synchromesh. |
I'm getting a bad feeling about using Valvoline VV831 pretty fast here..
edit: Reading about synchromesh I am still not convinced... it says for use with G 052 171 A2 and G 052 726 A2. This is driving me nuts |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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I'd have a bad feeling about sticking that into an older gear box too. It is a sulfur-phorphorus base GL-5 gear oil. Summit Racing sells it and says a little bit about it.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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mrcool
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2015
Posts: 358
Location: Bozeman, MT
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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yeah the VV831 in your link, right?
From summit just in case that link dies:
| Quote: |
Valvoline high performance gear oil is superior sulfur-phosphorus, extreme-pressure gear lubricant formulated with premium-quality base stocks to meet the demands for excellent performance. It's designed to provide excellent load carrying capacity, extreme-pressure properties, anti-foam performance, demulsibility, corrosion protection, thermal stability protection, and service fill limited-slip capability. The oil is recommended for conventional rear axles, limited-slip rear axles--and transmissions requiring EP gear lubes under high-speed, high-load, high-torque, and high-horsepower conditions. Valvoline high performance gear oil meets or exceeds API Services GL-5 and GL-4. The inclusion of limited-slip friction modifier in this product makes it unnecessary to add additional friction modifier in most vehicles.
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I ended up calling Valvoline (they were getting annoyed with my questions) and the guy that picked up the phone knew who I was without being the one responding to my emails.. oops.
So I tried hard to convince him the VV831 was fine to use. They were getting REALLY annoyed. They can only recommend their syncromesh and say it meets API GL4. |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| mrcool wrote: |
Update from Valvoline after the recommended use of Synchromesh fluid
Response:
| Quote: |
| Valvoline will not be held liable for any damages done. |
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This is why you will never get any meaningful information from Valvoline.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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mrcool
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2015
Posts: 358
Location: Bozeman, MT
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| mrcool wrote: |
Update from Valvoline after the recommended use of Synchromesh fluid
Response:
| Quote: |
| Valvoline will not be held liable for any damages done. |
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This is why you will never get any meaningful information from Valvoline. |
Bruce,
Please don't take it out of context. They said they will not be Liable if you use GL-5
| Quote: |
| However, if a GL-5 rated fluid is used where there are soft metals, Valvoline will not be held liable for any damages done. |
Edit:
In other words, if I use VV831 on my transmission with yellow metals they will not be liable. I had that repeated over and over. |
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Boolean
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Joined: January 19, 2012
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Location: Stockholm
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Bruce
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Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| mrcool wrote: |
Edit:
In other words, if I use VV831 on my transmission with yellow metals they will not be liable. I had that repeated over and over. |
They're not interested in helping you. They just want to make sure they don't get sued.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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mrcool
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2015
Posts: 358
Location: Bozeman, MT
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| mrcool wrote: |
Edit:
In other words, if I use VV831 on my transmission with yellow metals they will not be liable. I had that repeated over and over. |
They're not interested in helping you. They just want to make sure they don't get sued. |
Can't disagree with that. They are given scripts. But why would they recommend something else then? So they will accept liability if I use syncromesh. Why would they be so scared using GL5 lead to me suing them? If it would lead to a lawsuit then I'd have to think twice about using it.
Working in R&D and Quality control I fully understand covering your ass. But customer support is not making up things to tell customers. They are given the technical data from engineers (yes im sure lawyers double check it).
I'm just still not 100% convinced that there is a potential benefit of GL5 (possibly reducing wear on NLA parts) and if there is a benefit is it greater then the negative (wearing out yellow metals).
Maybe on a rebuilt tranny it makes sense to do that since as someone mentioned the syncros are no longer in danger of corrosion from added sulfur. On my all original transmission it makes more sense to me to play it safe.
Lets say they were trying to help me. What would they say and what data would they show me to convince me to use VV831. |
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mrcool
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2015
Posts: 358
Location: Bozeman, MT
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Boolean wrote: |
| So, now you know. GL-4 hypoid if you buy it from Valvoline. |
GL-4 that does not GL-5 written on it anywhere.  |
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Bruce
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Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| mrcool wrote: |
| I'm just still not 100% convinced that there is a potential benefit of GL5 (possibly reducing wear on NLA parts) and if there is a benefit is it greater then the negative (wearing out yellow metals). |
The myth you fear isn't that it will "wear out" yellow metals. The myth is that it causes corrosion to brass parts. GL-5 gear oil has been on the market for way over 20 years. The vast majority of VW owners have never heard of this myth and since GL-5 is the most commonly available gear oil, most VW owners have been blindly using GL-5. Now, if GL-5 is somehow destroying your synchros, all four synchros would fail at the same time since they would all be subjected to the exposure of GL-5 for the same amount of time, temp, etc. Have you ever heard of anyone with a VW that had all the synchros bad? It's usually 2nd, or 1st by itself, but never all of them. When a single synchro goes bad, it's the driver doing it.
What does an old penny look like? Brown, right? Many of the gearboxes I open up have synchros that are brown on the outside like an old penny. I think this is the "corrosion" they are talking about with GL-5. But this brown surface on the outside of the synchro has no effect on how it works. It's the inside cone that counts.
Some will say that GL-5 causes brass particles to be peeled away from the synchros. Again, if that was happening, all four synchros in a gearbox would suffer the same fate. I check them all, and I've never had a gearbox with all the synchros bad.
GL-5's benefits, It's in your link:
| Quote: |
| Valvoline high performance gear oil is superior sulfur-phosphorus, extreme-pressure gear lubricant formulated with premium-quality base stocks to meet the demands for excellent performance. It's designed to provide excellent load carrying capacity, extreme-pressure properties, anti-foam performance, demulsibility, corrosion protection, thermal stability protection, and service fill limited-slip capability. The oil is recommended for conventional rear axles, limited-slip rear axles--and transmissions requiring EP gear lubes under high-speed, high-load, high-torque, and high-horsepower conditions. Valvoline high performance gear oil meets or exceeds API Services GL-5 and GL-4. |
The extreme pressure rating for GL-4 is lower than GL-5. That's the whole point of having GL-5.
Think about the big three's pickup trucks with the diesel engines. The rear axles and ring and pinions have not changed significantly in the last 25+ years. But look at what the engines are doing. Instead of 400-500 ftlbs of torque from the engines back in the 90s, they are now getting close to 1000 ftlbs. It takes really good gear oil with a high extreme pressure rating for these rear ends to survive. This is why GL-5 was created.
I was talking to a friend of mine who works at one of the well known VW transmission rebuilders. He was telling me that the cores they are getting now are in such bad condition that most of them have worn out R&Ps. When you want a 3.88, they almost always install a new one. There's $300 added to your bill.
Why wouldn't you want the highest pressure rated gear oil on the market?
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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mrcool
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2015
Posts: 358
Location: Bozeman, MT
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:57 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for your time Bruce. Really looking forward to thinking out loud about this.
| Quote: |
| The myth you fear isn't that it will "wear out" yellow metals. The myth is that it causes corrosion to brass parts. |
So I was saying wear out because I was under the impression that the corrosion would wear off the syncros. The techs were not able to give me a time frame in which corrosion would occur. I am guessing because this really is going to depend on your metals and composition of it. So if using GL5 causes (seems that it does) microscopic bits of corrosion and metal wear to create more friction on gears that might be something I'd like to avoid. It wouldn't matter if you had GL5 at that point because you are putting contaminant into the case. Help me out if I have this wrong, this is the first topic I have started getting into understanding transmissions.
| Quote: |
| Now, if GL-5 is somehow destroying your synchros, all four synchros would fail at the same time since they would all be subjected to the exposure of GL-5 for the same amount of time, temp, etc. |
I would think that if GL-5 destroyed synchros it would corrode and then wear when in use. So help me out. Do you only use on synchros at a time, or a combination? So if you use first gear the most that would wear out just one syncro. But in fourth gear you are using all four? So in that case you wouldn't have them all fail at once since they don't all wear evenly.
And yes, I agreed. Shifting incorrectly will probably be your biggest wear, not using GL5. But why add unnecessary wear?
| Quote: |
| it takes really good gear oil with a high extreme pressure rating for these [diesel] rear ends to survive. This is why GL-5 was created. |
Does my 40hp air cooled need GL-5?
| Quote: |
I was talking to a friend of mine who works at one of the well known VW transmission rebuilders. He was telling me that the cores they are getting now are in such bad condition that most of them have worn out R&Ps. |
This doesn't help me figure out GL4 VS 5, but it does say I want to keep these parts in good condition. I still don't see why GL5 is needed because our transmissions don't warrant the highest EP rating. It probably just means that the transmissions are 30 years old and are beat up.
That paragraph you quoted from me was also a whole load of marketing mumbojumbo. High-load, high-torque and high-horsepower dont sound like my VW bus. It just so happens that one of the marketing things they through out there was "superior sulhur-phosphorus" and that is known to corrode our syncros.
| Quote: |
Why wouldn't you want the highest pressure rated gear oil on the market? |
That isn't the only criteria we should be looking at. I don't think VW was like "shit, well this one is rated way better than what we need, lets use that". GL4 could be working just fine.
So what we need to determine is does the VW stock transmission benefit from a high EP rating of GL5 |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:16 am Post subject: |
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I had a used tranny that I picked up rebuilt by GTA a few years ago to have as a spare. Since it was a 002 and I was putting in an older 1800 I decided to give the rebuild a go. GTA now recommends a fairly expensive synthetic GL-5 which I bought, but I first filled the gear box with some GL-4 which I had around and drove it with that oil in it for 4-5 thousand miles. The tranny shifted absolutely fine with the GL-4 oil in it, the shifts were light and smooth, including the downshifts. I then drained the gear box and refilled it with the synthetic BG Ultra Guard GL-5 supplied by GTA. The upshifts instantly became hard and slow, taking maybe 4 times the force and several times at long to get into gear and the downshifts were worse. Downshifting into 3rd was slow and hard and downshifting into 2nd at any speed was pretty much impossible without double clutching and still even then not very easy. Downshifting into 1st at any speed above 5 mph required so much force that it felt like the shift lever and linkage would bend or break if sufficient force were applied to get it to go in.
I ran the tranny with GTA recommend oil for about 2K miles and then dropped the oil and replaced it with Pennzoil Gl-4. The shifing instantly improved but did not go back to being as easy as it had been before, it being a bit more apt to grind going into gear.
Since the problem happened instantly when switching over to the BG Ultra Guard GL-5 oil I don't think that the problem is corrosion related, though corrosion damage could happen over the long run. I can't see where anything has changed for the better with GL-5 oil over the years that I have been driving VW's. What happened with this 002 is almost identical to what I experienced almost 30 years back when I tried running a GL-5 oil in a rebuilt 091 tranny after having broken it in with Gl-4, and is similar to what I have found on various boxes in other VW's I have bought and run over the years.
The BG Ultra Guard website does say their product will aggressively attach yellow metal, though as I say the shifting problem occurred immediately after the tranny was filled with this product.
Last edited by Wildthings on Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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gears
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Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| mrcool wrote: |
| So what we need to determine is does the VW stock transmission benefit from a high EP rating of GL5 |
I assume the following question was merely to test the limits of the GL-5 recommendation ..
| mrcool wrote: |
| Does my 40hp air cooled need GL-5? |
..because it seems you have an '83 Vanagon ..
| mrcool wrote: |
| Hello, Can you please recommend a gear oil for: 1983 VW Vanagon. 2.0L aircooled (CV engine) - Hypoid gear with yellow metal syncros. Manual suggests GL4 80w90 but that may be dated. Thanks for your help! |
So, assuming that you mean “the stock VW transmission, powered by a stock VW engine” I offer a historical perspective:
VW had always recommended a hypoid gear lubricant to protect their tiny R&Ps, long before adopting the hypoid design.
The first hypoid VW R&Ps came out in the 1968 Type II "Bus Box". This hypoid design benefits from higher EP lubes, but does not require them in low stress (stock VW) applications. In fact, in 1973 VW changed their gear lube recommendations, due to the unknown long term affects of reactive sulfur common to gear lubes of that era. Type I (Bug) owners were now directed to use lower EP protection oils, while Type IV owners were encouraged to continue using higher EP (hypoid) gear oils.
Even though the majority of oil companies eventually phased out the use of reactive sulfur, VW never updated their recommendations for these early cars. For bone stock applications, most of us are in agreement with VW that GL-4 is adequate from a protection standpoint. However, install a more powerful engine (especially into a heavy Vanagon), and the need for GL-5 becomes very real.
Anyhow, our debate seems to be progressing somewhat. Documentation of yellow metal erosion in VWs has proven elusive (non existent), so shift quality is now the primary GL-5 complaint. What I find amusing is that all GL-5 oils are treated as one and the same by those who disdain them. “I tried a couple .. they all suck.”
So, if your vehicle crosses that fine line (more powerful engine, severe use in any form), I'd suggest looking at which lubes Porsche shops have found acceptable, since Porsche transaxles are virtually identical in construction to VW (larger, more robust components; identical Borg Warner synchros). And, since Porsche has ALWAYS recommended using GL-5 or equivalent gear lubes, you can be sure that over the decades their selection process has arrived at reliable favorites (while rejecting others).
_________________
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9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
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mrcool
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Joined: April 01, 2015
Posts: 358
Location: Bozeman, MT
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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cut me some slack it was 2 in the morning  Ok I should have said,
So what we need to determine is does a VW (with the spec of GL-4 HYPOID 80W90) with stock transmission and motor benefit from a high EP rating of GL5?
I have implied this with several of my comments but I just want to be clear this isn't an attack on never using any GL5 ever. And like I have said a couple times, VV831 (GL5) may be great for rebuilt transmissions. It just doesn't make sense for me and the blanket statement on the first page is misleading.
| gears wrote: |
| Even though the majority of oil companies eventually phased out the use of reactive sulfur |
I am lead to believe that the sulfur found in GL5 (VV831 in particular) is still reactive. I have not seen that reactive sulfur was phased out.
| gears wrote: |
However, install a more powerful engine (especially into a heavy Vanagon), and the need for GL-5 becomes very real.
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I'd love to be able to figure out this threshold. To me it seems once you eliminate the use of yellow metals without coatings you are good to go.
| gears wrote: |
| Documentation of yellow metal erosion in VWs has proven elusive (non existent), |
Yellow metal corrosion is very real. Whether or not it erodes/wears the gears is yet to be determined. We have FAR too many variables to determine that GL5 alone caused the wear. Agreed.
Help me figure out how realistic this concern is. Still under the assumption of original power and tranny. I know this isn't realistic but lets assume that shifting is perfect and that does not introduce wear. My concern:
GL5 CAN cause corrosion. Wouldn't corroded metals wear faster in this application? This could cause particles in the case that could wear the R&P? if it is not causing particles to float in the case it is hurting the surface of the syncro and potentially whatever meshes with it.
Edit:
are there manufactures that use yellow metals in their tranny AND GL5? Porsche? |
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