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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:53 am    Post subject: Vanagon Engine Conversion Electrical Questions Reply with quote

Hi all.

This is regarding a Jetta 2.0 ABA engine swap into my air cooled 81' Westy.

I've decided to use the Jetta fuse panel for relays required by the Jetta engine. (fuel pump, O2 etc.) The Jetta engine management wiring harness connects to it.

Obviously the Jetta fuse panel needs power. There are at least 2 positive connections and a ground connection on the Jetta fuse panel.

Where should I take power from? Ignition switch? What gauge wire should I use?

Should I keep/use the Vanagon fuel pump relay?

Reasons for using Jetta fuse panel:

so far, I see no need to cut wiring harness
would need to buy sockets/fuses for the relays if I didn't use the panel
relays are fused at panel
basically got the Jetta fuse panel for free

Hope these questions make sense!

If I'm totally off base with this concept, feel free to iSlap me into reality!

Smile

Thanks

Neil.
_________________
1981 VanaJetta 2.0 Westy "Jaco"
1988 Westy To Be Named! :^)

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://sites.google.com/site/t2t3vaggasengineswaps/home

My Air Cooled Vanagon to 15 Jetta ABA swap pages:
https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/15degreeengineconversion
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ChesterKV
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Dude,

In a Subaru conversion, all the pertinant relays from the donor Subaru are used. My Subaru fuel pump relay sits next to my Subaru ECU under the rear bench seat. Mixing Vanagon/Jetta might work but why take the chance if you have the original Jetta setup? On my Vanagon, the remaining electrical wiring simply carries current between the Subaru ECU, the ignition switch, the starter, and the battery. All the "brains" are Subaru now.

Wish I could help you more,

Chester
_________________
1984 Wolfsburg 7-passenger stock sunroof
1992 Subaru Legacy EJ22 boxer motor installed.... van is now sold.... currently playing with a 1987 Toyota MR2 with 1.6 liter twin-cam motor. Better than the Subaru boxers....... I'm impressed. Well, okay, in an "apples and oranges" kind of way. Smile
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Chester. That's a help already.

In my minds eye, I see an engine conversion as basically transferring an engine, and its' needed peripherals into the Vanagon. i.e. if I had all the Jetta parts needed, and a car battery/starter/fuel etc., I could get it to run properly on an engine stand. In the case of a conversion, in a way, the Vanagon is the "engine stand".

I thought it might be hard to find relay sockets for the 5 and 6 pin relays I need to make the engine run right. So I figured why not use the Jetta fuse box? The relays fit and AFAIK, are fused by the fuses in the box.

IIRC, the Bostig Zetec conversion has a fuse box in the engine bay. I would put mine somewhere in the rear cabinet if wires are long enough. REgardless, that is part of what inspired me to use the Jetta fuse box

Does that make sense?

Neil.


ChesterKV wrote:
Hey Dude,

In a Subaru conversion, all the pertinant relays from the donor Subaru are used. My Subaru fuel pump relay sits next to my Subaru ECU under the rear bench seat. Mixing Vanagon/Jetta might work but why take the chance if you have the original Jetta setup? On my Vanagon, the remaining electrical wiring simply carries current between the Subaru ECU, the ignition switch, the starter, and the battery. All the "brains" are Subaru now.

Wish I could help you more,

Chester

_________________
1981 VanaJetta 2.0 Westy "Jaco"
1988 Westy To Be Named! :^)

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://sites.google.com/site/t2t3vaggasengineswaps/home

My Air Cooled Vanagon to 15 Jetta ABA swap pages:
https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/15degreeengineconversion
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ChesterKV
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup,

It makes sense. In the Subaru conversion, the Vanagon engine bay "little black box" sitting in its stock driver-side front corner is used to house any fuses which in this case is around three if I remember correctly, with one of them being IGNITION ON. As long as the fuses are protected they can live in the engine bay, no problem. If wires are short you can simply solder longer lines and put them anywhere you please.


Here's a clear view of the stock Vanagon box with a few new lines visible entering at the bottom. Those loose connections at the bottom were later tucked into the box....very clean when everything was finished.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Good luck,

Chester
_________________
1984 Wolfsburg 7-passenger stock sunroof
1992 Subaru Legacy EJ22 boxer motor installed.... van is now sold.... currently playing with a 1987 Toyota MR2 with 1.6 liter twin-cam motor. Better than the Subaru boxers....... I'm impressed. Well, okay, in an "apples and oranges" kind of way. Smile
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mightyart
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Show him the whole post Chester.
It's one of my favorites:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=237938
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil,

Typically with an engine conversion both the main ecu relay and the fuel pump relay come from the donor. In a Subaru conversion these relays are both Subaru items and with the ABA they should both be from the Jetta or Golf the engine and wiring came from.

I think rather than mounting the whole CEIII fuse box in the back of the Vanagon, you'd probably be better off containing the relays the way VW did it on the wasserboxer vans. They sit in a sealed box just above the coil on the driver's side of the engine compartment. Both relays are plugged into neat relay holders and the necessary chassis wires wire into the box, while a single plug comes out of the box and connects to the main engine harness.

Using this relay box would be a really clean and uncluttered way of doing your wiring.

David
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah ha!

I knew that keeping the black junction box from the engine bay of my 85' parts vanagon was worthwhile! I thought it might be handy.

If I can't get my idea to work, then I'll start cutting into the harness. Then I could put that black box to work.

But I'll try my plan first. And for sure yah I can shunt in some longer wires to reach the jetta fuse box. I was thinking that too. Good point.

Overall, it seems less work to use the jetta fuse box. Even if just for the reason that three or four plugs on the engine wiring harness that connect right up to the Jetta fuse box.

Thanks,

Neil.

ChesterKV wrote:
Yup,

It makes sense. In the Subaru conversion, the Vanagon engine bay "little black box" sitting in its stock driver-side front corner is used to house any fuses which in this case is around three if I remember correctly, with one of them being IGNITION ON. As long as the fuses are protected they can live in the engine bay, no problem. If wires are short you can simply solder longer lines and put them anywhere you please.


Here's a clear view of the stock Vanagon box with a few new lines visible entering at the bottom. Those loose connections at the bottom were later tucked into the box....very clean when everything was finished.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Good luck,

Chester

_________________
1981 VanaJetta 2.0 Westy "Jaco"
1988 Westy To Be Named! :^)

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://sites.google.com/site/t2t3vaggasengineswaps/home

My Air Cooled Vanagon to 15 Jetta ABA swap pages:
https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/15degreeengineconversion
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the pointers.

I wasn't sure I could find the 5 and 6 pin relay sockets needed for the fuel pump, etc. relays. I also didn't want to get into cutting into the wiring harness, find the wires needed and interface them with the 3 or 4 relays needed for the conversion. BUT....

Your explanation helps me see more clearly how all this is supposed to work. *Basically*, all I need to do is look to the connectors that used to connect the engine wiring harness to the Jetta fuse box, find which wires are needed for the fuel pump (etc.) relays, and connect them to the needed relays. Preferably fused.

Correct?


D Clymer wrote:
Neil,

Typically with an engine conversion both the main ecu relay and the fuel pump relay come from the donor. In a Subaru conversion these relays are both Subaru items and with the ABA they should both be from the Jetta or Golf the engine and wiring came from.

I think rather than mounting the whole CEIII fuse box in the back of the Vanagon, you'd probably be better off containing the relays the way VW did it on the wasserboxer vans. They sit in a sealed box just above the coil on the driver's side of the engine compartment. Both relays are plugged into neat relay holders and the necessary chassis wires wire into the box, while a single plug comes out of the box and connects to the main engine harness.

Using this relay box would be a really clean and uncluttered way of doing your wiring.

David

_________________
1981 VanaJetta 2.0 Westy "Jaco"
1988 Westy To Be Named! :^)

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://sites.google.com/site/t2t3vaggasengineswaps/home

My Air Cooled Vanagon to 15 Jetta ABA swap pages:
https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/15degreeengineconversion
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
Thanks for the pointers.

I wasn't sure I could find the 5 and 6 pin relay sockets needed for the fuel pump, etc. relays. I also didn't want to get into cutting into the wiring harness, find the wires needed and interface them with the 3 or 4 relays needed for the conversion. BUT....

Your explanation helps me see more clearly how all this is supposed to work. *Basically*, all I need to do is look to the connectors that used to connect the engine wiring harness to the Jetta fuse box, find which wires are needed for the fuel pump (etc.) relays, and connect them to the needed relays. Preferably fused.

Correct?




Yes, exactly. The relay portion of the Jetta fuse box is simply acting as a relay holder for the two relays. It should be pretty simple to identify the wires going to the Jetta relay panel and then interface them with the proper locations in the Vanagon wbx relay holder. My guess is the fuel pump relay and wiring for a wbx Vanagon is the same as what the ABA uses.

David
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah ok.

This is an air cooled Vanagon I'm converting. In regards to the WBX relay holder, maybe you were referring to my mention earlier in this thread of the "black box" I saved from a WBX donor. IIRC, it was simply a junction box though it would serve well to house relays. I don't recall removing any relay holders from the donor WBX other than what I found in the location above the drivers left knee. Maybe there is something there I can use.

I starting to lose track of what I have. I have begun to collect a lot of VW parts! Rolling Eyes

Regardless, I'm sure that if I decide to cut into the wiring harness, I'll be able to find some sockets for the Jetta relays.

Thanks for confirming and explaining. Smile

Neil.
_________________
1981 VanaJetta 2.0 Westy "Jaco"
1988 Westy To Be Named! :^)

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://sites.google.com/site/t2t3vaggasengineswaps/home

My Air Cooled Vanagon to 15 Jetta ABA swap pages:
https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/15degreeengineconversion
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ChesterKV
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
Ah ok.

This is an air cooled Vanagon I'm converting. In regards to the WBX relay holder, maybe you were referring to my mention earlier in this thread of the "black box" I saved from a WBX donor. IIRC, it was simply a junction box though it would serve well to house relays. I don't recall removing any relay holders from the donor WBX other than what I found in the location above the drivers left knee. Maybe there is something there I can use.

I starting to lose track of what I have. I have begun to collect a lot of VW parts! Rolling Eyes

Regardless, I'm sure that if I decide to cut into the wiring harness, I'll be able to find some sockets for the Jetta relays.

Thanks for confirming and explaining. Smile

Neil.



There's two black boxes in the vanagon engine bay; at least there is the water-cooled ones. The largest one and the one you see in my photo sits in the corner and is an electrical junction box. It has a silver sticker showing the WBX vacuum lines/charcoal filter system on the door flap. There's a smaller one forward of that going towards the rear of the van and it has HOCH SPANNUNG (High Voltage) marked on it in a yellow sticker I believe. That's the original Vanagon relay box.

For the Subaru conversion, the smaller relay box is discarded.


- Chester
_________________
1984 Wolfsburg 7-passenger stock sunroof
1992 Subaru Legacy EJ22 boxer motor installed.... van is now sold.... currently playing with a 1987 Toyota MR2 with 1.6 liter twin-cam motor. Better than the Subaru boxers....... I'm impressed. Well, okay, in an "apples and oranges" kind of way. Smile
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. I remember now.

Yah I actually got the engine running on the donor WBX (it was sold to me as non running with a "seized engine") so I sold almost all the engine peripherals with it. Pretty sure I included the relay box with the warning sticker Sad

Oh well. Smile

Neil


ChesterKV wrote:


There's two black boxes in the vanagon engine bay; at least there is the water-cooled ones. The largest one and the one you see in my photo sits in the corner and is an electrical junction box. It has a silver sticker showing the WBX vacuum lines/charcoal filter system on the door flap. There's a smaller one forward of that going towards the rear of the van and it has HOCH SPANNUNG (High Voltage) marked on it in a yellow sticker I believe. That's the original Vanagon relay box.

For the Subaru conversion, the smaller relay box is discarded.


- Chester

_________________
1981 VanaJetta 2.0 Westy "Jaco"
1988 Westy To Be Named! :^)

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://sites.google.com/site/t2t3vaggasengineswaps/home

My Air Cooled Vanagon to 15 Jetta ABA swap pages:
https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/15degreeengineconversion
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rsxsr
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a little confused. Are you thinking of adding the jetta fuse box or replacing the vanagon fuse box with the Jetta one? In my vanagon, I maintained as much as the original factory wiring as possible during the conversion. I had both the Vanagon Wiring and the New Beetle Wiring. I used the NB factory harnesses for the ECU. That makes a lot of the conversion plug in. I then took the time to figure out the remaining wires from the new ECU that needed to be connected into the Vanagon harness. Relays and relay holders are not a problem. They are available aftermarket in many amp loads and configuration. The ECU and Relays will need possibly 3 main power connections. Terminal 30 is hot all the time. Run a good size wire from the starter solenoid to a terminal block you supply. Terminal 15 is hot with the key on. The original wire to power the coil would suffice. You can add a relay to that wire to handle the added loads. Run the output from this relay to the terminal block. Lastly you will need a good heavy ground. Either the chassis or engine should suffice. Terminal blocks are good ways of cleanly routing power and grounds. They have mounting holes and multiple screws for attaching wire. HD sells them. Everything else is addons. Coolant temp, Alternator light, oil pressure light and so on. The orginals from the vanagon will work with your new engine. The wiring diagrams will be your best friend. Use solder and heat shrink when splicing wires. It is more time consuming, but will last longer than the cheap solderless connectors. Document your wiring as you go. You may need it one day. The better your connections, the less likely you will.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi.

I'm keeping the stock Vanagon fuse box and of course as much stock wiring as possible.

It was overkill, but I pulled a lot of stuff from the donor. Fuse box, ECM, harness, coil, inst. cluster, OBDI interface sockets, charcoal canister extra fuel rail, intake manifold, etc. I don't need some of that stuff (though it would be cool to find a way to set up that inst. cluster!). I just wanted to make sure I had what I needed.

A local VW parts yard guy suggested this. Use the Jetta fuse box. I didn't understand why at the time, but now I do.

My reasons for using the Jetta fuse box

-save money using the Jetta fuse box to "hold" the relays. (why not? For $600, engine in, the fuse box was a bonus!)
-The 3 or so plugs from the engine wiring harness plug right into the Jetta fuse box. Less or no cuts into the wiring harness.
-I'm pretty sure the relays would be fused that way.

Not trying to reinvent the wheel here. Just trying to limit the potential for mistakes in wiring. Though it sounds pretty straightforward given the helpful responses I've gotten here. Smile

I will be inspecting the harness closely. This was my first time pulling parts. I had to hurry near the end (daylight fading) so it's possible I could have scraped a wire or two. I doubt it but you never know. Regardless, the harness will need attention. I noticed the casing (wrap) around all the wires to the ECM was toast. Plus under the dash, the casing on one of the small gauge wires was failing. Normal wear and tear maybe, but I'll be inspecting.

I appreciate your clear "how to". I have a Jetta Bentley from the library and my Vanagon Bentley. So far, it looks like the power to the "Jetta" relays I'm adding needs to be "keyed" on. Thanks for pointers to the correct wires and to the idea of taking a feed from the coil to fire a relay that would in turn handle a larger load to the 3 or 4 relays needed for the Jetta engine managment systems.

For sure am doing my best to document.

tubaneil.googlepages.com

Mostly to help out others' who decide to do the "15 degree-VW I4-cobble-stuff-together-weld-your-own-engine carrier" route, but for sure is handy for my reference.

BTW, did you keep the stock Vanagon fuel pump relay? I'm going to use the stock Vanagon fuel pump, so figured the relay should be ok.

Thanks,

Neil.
rsxsr wrote:
I am a little confused. Are you thinking of adding the jetta fuse box or replacing the vanagon fuse box with the Jetta one?

_________________
1981 VanaJetta 2.0 Westy "Jaco"
1988 Westy To Be Named! :^)

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://sites.google.com/site/t2t3vaggasengineswaps/home

My Air Cooled Vanagon to 15 Jetta ABA swap pages:
https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/15degreeengineconversion
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rsxsr
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet you could use some of the original fuel pump relay wiring. To refresh, the Vanagon used a "double relay" to run the fuel pump. If I recall, part of the relay was activated after the engine started through t he air flow meter. You could look at the wiring and maybe energize the relay another way. The main safety reason with the fuel pump relay, is that the engine must be running for the fuel pump to continue running. The watercooleds used a tach signal to energize the fuel pump relay. The relay was suited to the pulse to work. In other words, a "special" relay. Other manufacturers use oil presure to energize the fuel relay after the engine starts. Main thing is if the engine quits running, accident, ruptured fuel line etc. The fuel pump will shutoff to avoid a fire. Make sense?
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1982 Diesel Vanagon Camper with ALH TDI.
1987 Syncro Tin Top
1990 Camper
2011 TDI Jetta Sportwagen.
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally makes sense. Thanks. And the suggestion of possibly using the existing Vanagon FP wiring is a good one. That had my brain a little confused. I could pull the wires from the stock FP relay at the Vanagon fuse panel (by drivers' knee) and install an appropriate socket for the Jetta FP relay. Hey maybe they have the same pin-out and spades? Smile (that reminds me. I should compare wire gauges) Regardless, after that, I would find the wire(s) in the engine bay from the "other side" of the FP relay and connect them to the correct wire from the Jetta ECM. The wires to the fuel pump should be fine as they are.

From what I saw on the air cooled diagram, the fuel pump relay is "double duty" too. Not certain if it has the fail-safe to shut off the fuel pump if engine stops, but as you're suggesting, most modern vehicles do. The Jetta and Vanagon WBX are no exception. Now I recall that on the WBX, the FP relay needs a signal from (ECU? Oil pressure?) to keep it "on". For sure. If the engine stops, so should the supply of fuel. Safety first!

I'll use the Jetta FP relay and if the other "side" of the Vanagon FP relay is not needed, (pretty sure it won't be) I will disarm it.

Neil.
_________________
1981 VanaJetta 2.0 Westy "Jaco"
1988 Westy To Be Named! :^)

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://sites.google.com/site/t2t3vaggasengineswaps/home

My Air Cooled Vanagon to 15 Jetta ABA swap pages:
https://sites.google.com/site/tubaneil2/15degreeengineconversion
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