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platatomi
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2012
Posts: 465
Location: Los Angeles, California
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 Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| platatomi wrote: |
| I just had a points-replacement device fail. I parked the car, and three hours later it would not start, |
Pertronix? What is the primary resistance of your coil? |
Not sure what kind it is, came with the car. But I don't think its pertronix. It has a black wheel that fits the shaft inside the distributor and a metal block that screws to the poibts plate. The coil reads 4 ohms resistance.
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'69 Beetle daily driver, fixing things as I go...
Update -
No longer daily driver but still fixing things... |
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rubadubug
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Joined: April 27, 2015
Posts: 137
Location: NY
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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A philosophical question. OK, I'm the proud new owner of a fuel injected '77 Beetle std sedan. '77 was the last Beetle sedan produced for the US market. It seems that it would be justified to continue where VW left off on this model year and use the electronic distributor or any technological improvements, preferably German made, to make this last model year dub more maintenance free and reliable. One can assume VW would have done the same had they continued to produce the VW for USA. I would even say it would be legitimate to retrofit a '77 with the 2015 beetle interior if it was available or any other new VW parts for that matter. This is historical continuity imo.
I believe the '77 Beetle sedan is exempt from the "stock polizei." It is the heir apparent to the future of the USA Beetle that VW pulled the plug on after '77. '77 owners have the "right" to fill that technological gap VW created. Modification to previous years remains verboten to VW purists.
Last edited by rubadubug on Sun May 10, 2015 9:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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itsmebryan
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2013
Posts: 49
Location: Carson,ca
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| itsmebryan wrote: |
For those that say electronic ignitions(EI) fail are really not being honest. Anything can fail and to say EI is more likely to fail is not true. |
108* ambients. EI module failure at less than 800 miles. Is this the type of reliability you speak of? I'm a small sample set, of exactly one, but this is NOT acceptable. Without onboard water and spare points, humans can die in these conditions.
The EI modules for cars that came with them are hundreds of dollars. The ACVW modules are in a "who can make the cheapest shit" arms race that does nothing for the customers. Not all modules are created equally. The only ones that CAN fit in our cars that are bulletproof often require a special distributor (Mallory) or entirely new ignition system. They're great products, but they don't jive with the fact that these cars were, from the factory, reliable, cheap, economical, and fun. Points are all of those. EI modules are one of those.
I would gladly pay hundreds of dollars for an EI system that drops in to my stock distributor, is 100% waterproof, is 100% EMF proof, fails gracefully with a warning, (my last points gave me 200 miles of SLIGHTLY jittery spark at 2k RPM,) and is guaranteed to not leave me and my family stuck in the desert. No aftermarket ACVW modules offer that, because the companies that make them wouldn't make any money that way. Cheap electronic shit made in the 21st century is NOT something we should be idolizing. Everyone who has a Pertronix that lasts a long time bought it many years ago. They got wise to that and the reports of failed modules are MUCH higher these days than when they were first available for our cars.
Robbie |
You agreed with what I said. It's not that EI is bad it the quality of the parts available for our cars that can be bad. Because all of the cars with EI that drove with in the same conditions didn't have the same problem. How did your car run before it failed? I have AAA and may keep a spare points distributor as a spare. We should have a list of which electronic distributors to avoid. |
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
They got wise to that and the reports of failed modules are MUCH higher these days than when they were first available for our cars.
Robbie |
It is normal for the number of failures to grow as the number of users grow. If there is a x% failure rate at 1000 users of course the number of failures will be higher with 100,000 users at the same x% rate.....
I did chuckle a little when you described wanting a guarantee that it won't leave you stranded in the desert. Your points and condensor give you that guarantee? My pounts/condensor failures over the years were like everyone else's, no big deal, they are cheap enough. That's why you don't hear folks complaining about those failures, but the same folks take to the internet to let everyone know when the higher priced points replacement fails! (It is a points replacement module, not an electronic ignition system)
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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platatomi
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Joined: August 09, 2012
Posts: 465
Location: Los Angeles, California
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 8:07 am Post subject: |
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I will be sticking with points. The bottom line is, if I had been running points, the engine failing to start and late-night distributor swap in a parking lot would not have happened. To me that is reliability.
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'69 Beetle daily driver, fixing things as I go...
Update -
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Everyone should stick with what works for them.... The problem arises when someone thinks another doesn't agree with them.... As I've said previously in thus thread, there isn't a single thing a single person can say that will make me think the pertronix module I've had in service since the early 90s was a bad investment. I'm not anti-points, I've had those in vehicles in that time also. If I hadn't I wouldn't have been able to replace the defective condensors and adjust points in that time. Contrary to some, they do fail.... No guarantees that there won't be late night or desert swaps just because you have them. 
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76904
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Whatever works for you....
Points fail, electronic replacements fail and stuff on 40+ year old cars fail.
If you're not able to deal with such issues, get a Camry.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 10:13 am Post subject: |
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This is a compufire or computronix unit, it's not a Pertronix.
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5475
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
I do have continuity through the cap on the #2 cylinder tower. The only thing I can think at this point is that the magnet in the ring for that one cylinder is not quite strong enough to trigger the Pertronix, possibly combined with the module itself less sensitive that it should be.
I see no signs that the little finger on my left hand is miscalibrated.  |
Take the magnetic ring off, rotate it, and see if the misfire follows. |
Following up from where I left off (page 24 of this thread)...
It isn't a daily driver so I just parked it after attempting to rotate the magnet ring. When I tried to pull the ring it fell apart and 4 tiny magnets went flying around inside the distributer. That ended that test. I was able to find them all and pull them out. One ended up by the felt pad, stuck inside the top of the distributer shaft.
I just put points in it this morning. Then I found I no longer have a test lamp, when it broke I didn't replace it because I use a multimeter for everything. But they only update about 4 times a second so that couldn't be used to set timing. I set the point gap to 0.018 at the top of the distributer cam and then rotated the distributer so I had 0.002 gap with the crank at TDC. It got things close enough to start (about 5 degrees retarded.)
The engine started quick and was running great. I warmed it up and timed it at 5 ATDC with the vacuum retard line connected. Then I pulled the vacuum retard and it jumped to right about 7-8 degrees advance (I only have TDC and 5 ATDC marks on my stock pulley.) I did observe one other thing though. It is important to time on cylinder #1 because it seems the distributer has about 2-3 degrees retard in the #3 cylinder. I didn't expect that on the late doghouse and fuel injected engines.
After a nice drive to get the motor warm, the thing that used to make it run on 3 cylinders, it is running great. +1 more for points. I do feel a bit silly having an engine with electronic fuel injection, electronic voltage regulator, and points and a condenser. My '79 runs without the EGR, without the decel valve, and with the vacuum retard disconnected. Basically, its a de-smogged F.I. engine. The low end is so smooth this 2100 lb. vert will take off in 2nd gear with a 3.87 R&P.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| modok wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
| cyclecostarica wrote: |
| there is 20 pages of stuff here and I did read a lot of it but I saw nothing on using points with an electronic box. |
My petronix II died
I now have points triggering a FORD TFI ignition module. It is working better than I expected. |
Further stirring pot. Still running points/TFI module. Have not adjusted points going on one year. |
Haven't adjusted them yet. It's been two years now. How many miles?? I didn't keep track but probably 8000 roughly. |
Had a few misfires, checked point gap and found .006" gap
So.... I made it about 9k miles and over two years without taking off the cap. Had to file points and re-set gap and timing. I've heard some go three times that long, I wonder how? |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5475
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| modok wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
| cyclecostarica wrote: |
| there is 20 pages of stuff here and I did read a lot of it but I saw nothing on using points with an electronic box. |
My petronix II died
I now have points triggering a FORD TFI ignition module. It is working better than I expected. |
Further stirring pot. Still running points/TFI module. Have not adjusted points going on one year. |
Haven't adjusted them yet. It's been two years now. How many miles?? I didn't keep track but probably 8000 roughly. |
Had a few misfires, checked point gap and found .006" gap
So.... I made it about 9k miles and over two years without taking off the cap. Had to file points and re-set gap and timing. I've heard some go three times that long, I wonder how? |
I've never had a set of points need attention in 9000 miles! Did you perchance forget to put a little grease on the distributer cam? I did for about 10 miles this morning. 
I was eyeing a conversion using the points without the condensor and an HEI module. A 1 transistor inverting circuit has to be made. Point current is only about 0.002 amps, compared to about 4 amps for a stock system. It is similar to the Ford TFI conversion except that HEI modules tend to be cheaper and more reliable. The HEI module is designed for an inductive spike so the conversion inverts the point signal.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Zundfolge1432
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Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12467
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
Whatever works for you....
Points fail, electronic replacements fail and stuff on 40+ year old cars fail.
If you're not able to deal with such issues, get a Camry. |
We did, actually we bought a piss ant er I mean prius. Can you imagine anything more electronic than this? My first prius an 07 has over 250 k miles now all original including the battery. It started life as a Hertz rental so you know it's had an easy life. |
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Floating VW
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Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1596
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
The ACVW modules are in a "who can make the cheapest shit" arms race that does nothing for the customers. Not all modules are created equally. |
You see, that right there is the ugly wheel around which this entire 26-page bitchfest has been revolving for the past seven years. It might have started off as a points versus electronic ignition discussion (or points replacement module, if you prefer), but that didn’t last long because, quite frankly, such an argument is about as silly as drums versus discs (clearly, drums are better). So the REAL argument, then, is not so much about which system is better, but rather which system can be manufactured with the barest minimum of quality, and still allow your engine to function properly. I was just joking about the drums, by the way.
If you go back and re-read this thread from that point of view, you’ll notice two things: the first is that you won’t see too many people say, “I run points, but I keep a spare pertronix in the glovebox just in case.” It’s always the other way around, and it’s pretty obvious why. The second is that, with the exception of one or two diehard purists (God bless them), everyone slamming the EI module has one thing in common. They’re all people who used to run points, then got lured into trying the new “upgrade” by promises of “better performance and you’ll never have to worry about changing points again,” and they were all happy as pigs in poop – right up until they got stranded in a nasty place when the damn thing suddenly took a dump on them. Add to that the fact that a good chunk of coin just went down the drain along with it, and it’s basically the same feeling as coming home early and catching your woman and your best friend all covered in baby oil doing the-beast-with-two-backs on your favorite leather couch. It stings, man, oh how it stings.
Of course, there are a few lucky bastards out there who managed to get their compufire (or whatever) back in the days when the task masters in China were still allowed to use whips to keep the kids at the factory in line. They have never felt that sting, and they for the life of them can’t understand how anyone could be filled with such vitriol after tasting the sweet, sweet nectar of points-less ignition. All I can say to you lucky bastards is, well, you’re a bunch of lucky bastards, that’s what you are.
Me personally, I bought my pertronix back in ’99 and promptly set off on an Anchorage-L.A.-Chicago road trip. It ran great, right up until the rivets holding the module to the base plate came loose and caused a proper bit of misfiring, during rush hour, smack in the middle of the Golden Gate bridge (I won’t lie, that caused my anus to pucker a little). Once I got it fixed, it ran great again all the way to Chicago, where it took another dump on me, this time for good. That’s when I threw in the towel and put my old-fashioned, outdated, yet strangely comforting points back in. I’ve been running points ever since. Am I aware that it’s just a matter of time before they burn out and need to be replaced? Yes. Am I aware that they need to be lubricated and adjusted periodically? Yes. Would I love to replace those points with something more technologically advanced and maintenance free, even if it costs more? Absolutely, but no one’s gettin’ another 80 bones out of me until I see a big jump in quality control (i.e. not until they give the task masters their whips back. Stop slacking and get to work, you lazy, dishonorable kids! The ACVW aftermarket is not paying you 4 cents a day to churn out just any old piece of crap!)
P.S. For the record, I did have a set of points catastrophically fail and leave me stranded once. However, the failure was caused by a loose screw making a dead short in the circuit, not the actual points themselves, so I don’t count that one.
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TheAmazingDave
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Joined: April 11, 2013
Posts: 788
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Man, this thread makes my head spin. Looks like it's already been beaten to death, but I'll add my 2 cents for shits and grins.
I daily drive my 71 Super. It is my only car, and he takes me anywhere and everywhere without fail. We climb mountains, we cruise the beach, we take long drives down the freeway just to drive and have fun.
I run points and condenser. I never have a problem, and they hardly require any maintenance above a visual inspection. This one time, I did have the rubbing block snap off and leave me on the side of the road, but that was my fault for using parts-store 3rd party points with a plastic block, and not quality Bosch points with the fiber rubbing block.
I put easily 15k+ miles on my last set. They never required adjustment. I just changed them for piece of mind, and used another quality set of Bosch points.
It's these little maintenance items that are part of owning a VW. I don't daily drive a 44-year-old car because I have to (I could pick up a cheap DD if I really needed to) but because I enjoy all the little nuances that come with owning a classic VW. Putting in a points-replacement is just robbing myself of the joys and responsibilities of maintaining an old Dub.
I'm all for adding upgrades to ancillary systems (like my dash gauges and a stereo) but as far as how the car runs and drives, I'm quite content that it operates the way it did when it left the factory almost half a century ago. Upgrades to running gear are by necessity only, such as upgrading to discs when I build my bigger engine, but you can bet that engine will run points and condenser as well.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76904
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Putting the magnets that trigger the module in plastic is not what I'd call precision.
No OEM uses plastic.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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Zundfolge1432
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Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12467
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| After all these heartfelt testimonials from both camps did anyone change to the other side? Who cares run whatever you think works for your application.or think of it this way. "What we think we become". Buddha or "Nobody loves me but my mother but she could be jiving too" BB King. Or " My head hurts my feet stink and I don't love Jesus" Jimmy Buffett. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76904
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| After all these heartfelt testimonials from both camps did anyone change to the other side? |
I know a few who have gone back to points after getting stuck on the side of the road.
And then there's this guy.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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airschooled
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Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Wow sorry I missed out on all the action in this thread… 
Too busy driving, I guess. 
Robbie
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Bruce
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Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17285
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| After all these heartfelt testimonials from both camps did anyone change to the other side? |
I know a few who have gone back to points after getting stuck on the side of the road. |
I had a Pertronix fail and leave me stranded in the middle of nowhere, at night, when raining. Points eventually got me home, but i don't use them any more. The failure was due to improper installation on the mechanic's part, not the fault of Pertronix.
Today I use a Pertronix, properly installed. It's been reliable for about 10 years.
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EVfun
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Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5475
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
Wow sorry I missed out on all the action in this thread…
Too busy driving, I guess.
Robbie |
Probably with points and a condenser! Is there any high quality electronic ignition options for an old Bug? A Pertronix module with 4 tiny magnets held between 2 small pieces of injection molded plastic no longer impresses me.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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