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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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EVfun wrote: |
asiab3 wrote: |
Wow sorry I missed out on all the action in this thread…
Too busy driving, I guess.
Robbie |
Probably with points and a condenser! Is there any high quality electronic ignition options for an old Bug? A Pertronix module with 4 tiny magnets held between 2 small pieces of injection molded plastic no longer impresses me. |
P&C today*, but I have around 14k miles logged with the Mallory Unilite system, which is extremely well-built. Some people report quality issues with the Mallory distributors themselves, but their optical trigger mechanism is significantly more accurate than a neglected set of points.
*I've had both setups fail on me, but the points failed gracefully enough to get me home rather than act like I was just out of gas.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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langan Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2010 Posts: 423 Location: Eagle ID.
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Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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I am new to VW's but I paid 350.00 for the Protronic's Flame Thrower 3 and coil had hoped it might be like an HRI or close heck even runs same plug gap. What I got was a tack that did not work, endless hrs of messing with the advance, and ended up going back to the 009 point style and instantly runs better. Still did not cure the Kadron's problems |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Ill give you $50. for the flame thrower setup .it apparently has issues.but it does look good. |
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mikedjames Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012 Posts: 2715 Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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I have killed a Pertronix by swapping the wires - like so many people I suspect who badmouth points replacements units actually put the wires back wrong when they finished working on the engine. Red to black, black to empty. Simple.
So I bought an Accuspark - and electronically it is identical to the Pertronix in terms of the firing current flowing through it, but it does have a cutoff for low RPM so it does not cook the coil and itself if the engine stops.
One difference however is that the Accuspark comes with thermal grease so the baseplate can act as a heatsink for the heat generated by the electronics (points will not create heat because they are lower resistance)
And the other difference is that in recognition of being made in somewhere cheap, it costs half the price of the Pertronix unit, which appears to come with some of that Westfalia Scene Tax.
And it is bright red rather than boring black so it must be better. _________________ Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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EVfun wrote: |
modok wrote: |
modok wrote: |
modok wrote: |
modok wrote: |
cyclecostarica wrote: |
there is 20 pages of stuff here and I did read a lot of it but I saw nothing on using points with an electronic box. |
My petronix II died
I now have points triggering a FORD TFI ignition module. It is working better than I expected. |
Further stirring pot. Still running points/TFI module. Have not adjusted points going on one year. |
Haven't adjusted them yet. It's been two years now. How many miles?? I didn't keep track but probably 8000 roughly. |
Had a few misfires, checked point gap and found .006" gap
So.... I made it about 9k miles and over two years without taking off the cap. Had to file points and re-set gap and timing. I've heard some go three times that long, I wonder how? |
I've never had a set of points need attention in 9000 miles! Did you perchance forget to put a little grease on the distributer cam? I did for about 10 miles this morning.
I was eyeing a conversion using the points without the condensor and an HEI module. A 1 transistor inverting circuit has to be made. Point current is only about 0.002 amps, compared to about 4 amps for a stock system. It is similar to the Ford TFI conversion except that HEI modules tend to be cheaper and more reliable. The HEI module is designed for an inductive spike so the conversion inverts the point signal. |
If there is no circuit to filter out points bounce then not much "point" in it, just hook up the GM module and it will fire when the points close. Modify the distributor so the rotor is pointed the right way. OR, if you like to make circuits then it's be good to filter points bounce and have auto-shutdown.
I run 12volt through 40 ohms resistance to the points to keep them self cleaning, delta and MSD do too. If you do this then it will not matter if the condenser is connected or not, so a switch can be added to go back to kettering like delta and Winterburns CDI.
Why did the rubbing block wear down?? I don't know. Perhaps it's because I didn't use the special bosche grease. LOL
As far as I remember they always do wear about that rate, but I've heard many claim otherwise and no reason to doubt them.
The TFI module historically has a poor reputation, but it would not surprise me in the least if it outlasts the whole rest of the car. Many of the ones I've collected from the junkyard DID, and still work fine. |
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langan Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2010 Posts: 423 Location: Eagle ID.
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Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Now that I have compaired the 009 and the Protronics 3 I see that the 009 has half the mechanical advance. Mine worked best with the lightest springs and I only set timing with motor at 3000. So next time I try Protronics I will limit the advance with those brass angles? But for now the stock 009 works great on the 1641 with Kadrons and now the Kadrons are starting to make some tuning sence. |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3528 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if it's been mentioned on this thread, but points will last way longer if you install an MSD ignition box.
I tossed out my Unilite & Pertronix for points & an MSD |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:10 am Post subject: |
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I cant say Ive ever had points in any of my stuff but brig&stratton,tecumpsie lawnmowers and old honda dirtbiles fro 1971. we used to take cars that had points & install a std mopar/chrysler electronic ignition on them,never an issue.my bug has a 20+ year old petronix on it. never an issue.as for the plastic magnet holder...I see no issues with it at all. there were racecar crank trigers with plastic wheels.....oh I for got these are not racecars there vw's. I offten why plastic is used for any thing but it might not be the best thing for muffler bearings....but rubber works fine.
And yes points create heat. |
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julesmast Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2015 Posts: 95 Location: Jackson, TN
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Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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I have to read this thread in its entirety but thought I would skip to the last page say HEY EVERYONE and yes, you are dealing with a newbie and a woman that knows precious little about engines and mechanics... with that information you can now grab a beer and brace yourself for the question I posted on the main forum to be redirected here...
Are you ready?? Remember, I plan to read up and learn more about the argument on both sides of the debate, just thought I would post my question for now.. feel free to skip over it!
My BIL was over the other day and unknown to me he has had several doodle bugs as he calls them over the years. He recommended I change the ignition from a point system to electronic.. I have a 68 with a 1600 dp engine, is this recommended and more importantly easy to do without opening the door to more issues?
Before we started the pan restore and other fixes the bug ran fine from the barn it was stored in to our home. I would like to have the option of driving this more then just once a week, even if I don't leave my home too often so it is important to me to take the time and do the updates that might make it more reliable and better running.. _________________ My First Beetle Project: 1968 Bug -
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7711662#7711662 |
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ewdb92 Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2010 Posts: 502 Location: Plymouth, NH
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Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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julesmast wrote: |
I have to read this thread in its entirety but thought I would skip to the last page say HEY EVERYONE and yes, you are dealing with a newbie and a woman that knows precious little about engines and mechanics... with that information you can now grab a beer and brace yourself for the question I posted on the main forum to be redirected here...
Are you ready?? Remember, I plan to read up and learn more about the argument on both sides of the debate, just thought I would post my question for now.. feel free to skip over it!
My BIL was over the other day and unknown to me he has had several doodle bugs as he calls them over the years. He recommended I change the ignition from a point system to electronic.. I have a 68 with a 1600 dp engine, is this recommended and more importantly easy to do without opening the door to more issues?
Before we started the pan restore and other fixes the bug ran fine from the barn it was stored in to our home. I would like to have the option of driving this more then just once a week, even if I don't leave my home too often so it is important to me to take the time and do the updates that might make it more reliable and better running.. |
As you read through this thread, I think you'll find equal arguments for making the switch and those for staying with points. It's sort of like reading the reviews on Amazon. I think some of the recent comments on personal experience accurately reflect positions for either side of the debate so if you think you might be happier with a pointless system (ha, catch that pun? ), go for it, but keep a set of points in your tool box. The switch is pretty straight forward, just be careful to double check the electrical hook-ups so you don't fry the thing. My personal preference is for points, but ran a pertronix for years in a bus about 20 years ago. I never had an issue with it, but never saw the improvement in engine performance others claimed to achieve. It saved me time during tune-ups, but, with a little practice, adjusting points only takes a minute or two. Both systems are, in my opinion, fine for daily driving and reliability if installed correctly and maintained (factory defects aside). And yes, I still keep an extra set of points (and condenser) in my tool box. _________________ Erik
71 Camper
http://zerotosixtyeventually.wordpress.com/ |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12454
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Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:09 am Post subject: |
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I'm still not convinced, this Luddite is still using points |
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Frank Bassman Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2012 Posts: 892 Location: Miami
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Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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I just have to say, Im running the ford TFI grey module with the bosch blue triggered by points, and I think it is the best of both worlds and cheap. I also run CB's resistorless rotor. I think it is great, no points pitting strong spark and very good base for susbstituting in a hot coil. The points last a looooong time, and the best thing is if the module dies I can revert to points in thirty seconds and get home. This is s good option for those that want to tinker and still be able to have a plan b if shit hits the fan on the road! I like points for their simplicity, but In my opinion electronic ignition is nice too. This is my way, kind of, of having my cake and eating it too!
Hey Modok, if you are reading, thanks for the idea man, 8,000 miles later and it is running like a top! Easily one of the nicest things I have done for my engine since getting rid of my 009 once upon a time!
_Frank |
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j-dub Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003 Posts: 865 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Frank Bassman wrote: |
I just have to say, Im running the ford TFI grey module with the bosch blue triggered by points, and I think it is the best of both worlds and cheap. |
Would you mind showing a picture and a bit more information on this?
Edit:
Here is additional information:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417099 _________________ 1957 Oval rag
"POLICE STATION TOILET STOLEN ... Cops have nothing to go on."
Last edited by j-dub on Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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fivelugshortaxle Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 4254 Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to be running pertronix, but I got it for free. ....just had to buy the coil. And as long as I don't cross wires kt will last for a good, long time. If it fails? Points and condensor in the glove box. _________________ Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17273 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:47 am Post subject: |
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fivelugshortaxle wrote: |
I'm going to be running pertronix, ....just had to buy the coil. .. |
Make sure you measure the resistance of the coil's primary windings. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Ghoti Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2007 Posts: 760 Location: Rollin' in 541
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Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Scott H wrote: |
sammyphsyco wrote: |
Wow what a waist of 10 pages of Al Gores internet. Tring to convince someone that one is better than the other is like trying to get a heroine addict to switch to speed.
Someone please lock this pointless thread. |
Ok.
Locked. |
HEY! This thread was locked 7 years ago. Please respect the lock. Thank you. _________________ OH SNAP! |
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airshac Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015 Posts: 168 Location: Durham, NC United States
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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:12 am Post subject: |
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j-dub wrote: |
Frank Bassman wrote: |
I just have to say, Im running the ford TFI grey module with the bosch blue triggered by points, and I think it is the best of both worlds and cheap. |
Would you mind showing a picture and a bit more information on this?
Edit:
Here is additional information:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417099 |
I'm going to reply to this thread because its not currently locked....
This looks like an easy conversion, has any one else tried it on the vw engine? Is there more to it then I'm getting from the outside link? _________________ Any time I park the bus and it's not smoking, leaking or on fire I consider it a good trip.
1971 Westfalia adventure wagon Festy Westy.
1977 Tintop, Weekender conversion in progress. |
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Keller1044 Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2014 Posts: 15 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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Been looking at this too and with all the responses I think the idea of sticking with the original points and parts designed it the way I ought to go. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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airshac wrote: |
j-dub wrote: |
Frank Bassman wrote: |
I just have to say, Im running the ford TFI grey module with the bosch blue triggered by points, and I think it is the best of both worlds and cheap. |
Would you mind showing a picture and a bit more information on this?
Edit:
Here is additional information:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417099 |
I'm going to reply to this thread because its not currently locked....
This looks like an easy conversion, has any one else tried it on the vw engine? Is there more to it then I'm getting from the outside link? |
Any questions about TFI+points feel free to ask, BUT, maybe you better start a new topic for it, as, this one is getting long! |
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Frank Bassman Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2012 Posts: 892 Location: Miami
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Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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Oh snap! I completely forgot this thread existed, and that I even wrote anything... happens. I'll go take some pictures of the setup. I must admit, It looks a little jerry-rigged/jury-rigged/insert-your-term-of-choice-here-rigged but that is only because I haven't cared to clean up the wiring birds nest I have.
Should we start a new thread or post here? The info may forever be lost in the depths of the interwebs if we put it down here.
And for the record, credit goes to Modok as he is the one I got the idea from. I was seeing about the points replacement modules but wanted something I could have and quickly revert to points to get home should the electronic module ever fail. This seemed like a great compromise and it pretty much is a better heat dissipating, more robust system than one that lives inside the distributor. At least it has a heatsink and is its own entity. I have had no issues thus far. (already about 10,000 miles since installing it.
-Frank |
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