TheSamba.com
>Help  >Donate  >Buy Shirts  >Register  >Log in See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com
 
stuck starter
Forum Index -> Vanagon/Eurovan Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
candyman
Samba Trout Slayer


Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 1591
Location: Where the solar garlic starts to rot
candyman is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:52 am    Post subject: stuck starter Reply with quote

so whats going on here?
87 syncro 2.1. I was driving around running errands today. It is a cool day and the van was not running hot. I parked for about 5 minutes. Went to restart and the starter stuck on spinning but not engaging. I shut the car down and the starter stayed on spinning. I disconnected the battery for a moment reconncected and the start continued to spin. Finally i disconnected the battery again for about 20 minutes, i guess that was enough to allow it to cool, as it worked fine when i reconnected the battery. Whats up?? time for a new starter? i never had any issues with it before, this is the first. there is about 100k on the van and it is original starter. I guess my real question is not "do I need a new starter" but "why is it doing this"?
thanks
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bramstedt
Samba Member


Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Louisiana
Bramstedt is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When starters spin over but do not engage, I would be suspicious of the solenoid. Its a little magnetic piston that pushes a gear in the starter out to contact the flywheel and turn the engine over. Once the motor catches and you release the key, the solenoid pulls the little gear away from the rapidly rotating flywheel. Not having an infinite lifespan, they fall prey to corrosion and will not always engage. Heat makes it worse, explaining your temperature issue. Before ripping it apart, make double sure that all the wires going to the starter are tight and clean. If this does not do the trick, best to replace the whole starter unit as when the solenoid is worn, the starter is likely not long in this world either. One trick, if on the cheap, is to keep wood block on hand and when it sticks, give a couple sharp smacks and have a go at starting. Temporary mind you! As for the spinning when the key is off, maybe a switch issue? That is odd.

Brian-
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
candyman
Samba Trout Slayer


Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 1591
Location: Where the solar garlic starts to rot
candyman is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bramstedt wrote:
As for the spinning when the key is off, maybe a switch issue? That is odd.

Brian-



this part is what is weird to me too. can anyone shine light on that?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bucko
Samba Member


Joined: December 09, 2004
Posts: 2621
Location: Coppell, Texas
bucko is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definetly the solenoid. It's the smaller round cylinder resting on the starter. They can be replaced seperately, but I don't recale seeing them sold individualy on the normal parts sites.

Mightyart is good at finding these pieces. He will read this and find you a link!

As to the starter still spinning with the key off, well that's gotta be a bad ignition switch. If it were to happen again, wiggle the key back/forth/up/down to see if it stops. It should. Then a new switch is in order.
_________________
Current VW drives: 1984 Westfalia

Past VW drives: 1967 Beetle, 1973 Beetle, 1977 Bus, 1971 Military Type 181
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
J Charlton Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: August 24, 2007
Posts: 1136
Location: The True North Strong and Free
J Charlton is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:21 pm    Post subject: starter Reply with quote

When you turn the key to start the vehicle, power is supplied to the primary side of the solenoid (which is a high amperage relay) the solenoid closes and power, 30 - 40 amps worth, is spp;ied to the starter motor. The starter motor spins and centrifugal force causes a gear (Bendix gear) to spin out a shaft to engage the gears on the flywheel - it turns the flywheel until the engine starts. when you release the ignition from the start position to the run position, current is no longer supplied to the solenoid primary, the circuit to the starter is open and the gear retracts down the shaft of the starter.
Your starter spinning and not engaging means that either something is preventing the gear from travelling to the engage position with the flywheel or the starter isn't spinning with enough force to propel the gear out along the shaft.
In either case the starter needs to come off and either be rebuilt at the shaft end or the windings. A good auto electric shop can tell very quickly if the windings are OK. Sometimes, you can get away with just cleaning up the shaft and lubing it up. IMO its not worth not having it rebuilt once you have it out.
If the starter is turning at all, its not your solenoid.
_________________
Now accepting deposits for new model hightops and AW tops : production scheduled for May

AW top sets are available for sale: Flagstaff (1)

http://northamericanhightops.com
http://canadianhightops.ca
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bucko
Samba Member


Joined: December 09, 2004
Posts: 2621
Location: Coppell, Texas
bucko is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, I always thought the solenoid had a "fork" of sorts that pushed the gear forword; when this "fork" got so far forward, it made contact with a copper contact that began to spin the starter motor.

I recall this on an old 58 chevy truck I had when I took it out and rebuild it. On this cool old truck, I turned the key to "on", and pressed a small pedal on the floor, which connected straight to the solenoid itself.

I miss that truck.....
_________________
Current VW drives: 1984 Westfalia

Past VW drives: 1967 Beetle, 1973 Beetle, 1977 Bus, 1971 Military Type 181
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
candyman
Samba Trout Slayer


Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 1591
Location: Where the solar garlic starts to rot
candyman is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is just a weird series of events. Since this happened this morning i have driven it all day with no more accourance. The funny thing is i could take the key out of the ignition and it was still spinning. the only thing to turn it off was disconnect the battery. i will pull the starter this weekend if it happens again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
J Charlton Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: August 24, 2007
Posts: 1136
Location: The True North Strong and Free
J Charlton is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:02 pm    Post subject: starter Reply with quote

If the start motor is still spinning after you have backed the key to the run position or indeed to off - then the solenoid is stuck closed on the secondary side. I never replace the starter without replacing the solenoid - on many starters the solenoid is an integral part of the starter. Sounds to me as if you have simultaneous failure of both starter and solenoid - in fact the starter is probably either burnt out or the Bendix gear screwed up because the solenoid has stuck in the closed position when it ought not to be and the starter has been running when it shouldn't have been.
Replace them both.
Starter motors and solenoids always seem to crap out in the coldest nastiest weather here in Canada. Low temps reduce battery output and an already dodgy starter or starter solenoid combination inevitably manifests itself in the worst possible weather.
They also screw up on your outboard when you're about 5 miles from home in the pitch black after a good night's walleye fishing. Fortunately that time I was able to jump aroung the solenoid straight onto the starter terminal and get it going.
J
_________________
Now accepting deposits for new model hightops and AW tops : production scheduled for May

AW top sets are available for sale: Flagstaff (1)

http://northamericanhightops.com
http://canadianhightops.ca
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Keane
Samba Member


Joined: April 08, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: South Jersey/West Chester, PA
Keane is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hmmm, I always thought the solenoid had a "fork" of sorts that pushed the gear forword; when this "fork" got so far forward, it made contact with a copper contact that began to spin the starter motor.


• Electric starter – this is the modern starter motor and it is a series wound direct current electric motor with a solenoid switch that is similar to a relay, mounted on it. When the low-current power from the starting battery is applied to the solenoid (this is usually through a key operated switch), it will push out a small pinion gear on the starter motor’s shaft and meshes it with the ring gear on the flywheel of the engine. The solenoid will also close high current contacts for the starter motor and it will start running. When the engine starts up, the key operated switch is opened and a spring in the solenoid assembly will pull the pinion gear away from the ring gear, and the starter motor will then stop. In modern starter motors there is a “bendix” – which is a gear and integral freewheel, or an overrunning clutch. This will enable the flywheel to automatically disengage the pinion gear from the flywheel when the engine starts.

Thats taken from http://news.carjunky.com/how_stuff_works/how_car_starters_work_cs2356.shtm

I guess they dont make them like that anymore.
_________________
-'90 Vanagon GL, 2.1 WBX, 4 speed
-'11 WRX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Wildthings
Samba Member


Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 23760

Wildthings is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is that you have something messed up in the linkage between the solenoid and the bendix. It for some reason didn't engage the bendix while simultaneously holding the solenoid in the run position. It is in the hands of Mr Murphy now and will fail again at the most inopportune moment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Huxmobile
Samba Member


Joined: June 16, 2008
Posts: 103
Location: SF Bay area
Huxmobile is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reviving an old thread here.

I just had the same experience as the OP (starter wouldn't engage, then wouldn't shut off even with key out until the battery was disconnected). After a while I was able to reconnect the battery without kicking on the starter, put the key in and get home. I did wiggle some wires at the starter while trying to find something obvious, but everything seemed snug. Started up fine this morning too.

Initially I thought it may be the ignition switch and got excited for a little project......and then I did the "Search" here. Looks like I may have a Solenoid and/or Starter that needs replacing. In that case I'd probably replace the ignition switch too.

Question: Does the Solenoid/Starter fail intermittently like this or all at once?

By the way, it took me a minute or two to get the battery disconnected while the starter was buzzing away. Think I did any damage?

Thanks
DJ
_________________
87 Westy 2.1L, manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Huxmobile
Samba Member


Joined: June 16, 2008
Posts: 103
Location: SF Bay area
Huxmobile is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

selfish bump Smile
_________________
87 Westy 2.1L, manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Ahwahnee
Samba Member


Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 3878
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
Ahwahnee is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion is that you did no harm... no apparent reason to replace the ignition switch... you likely need to replace the starter.

Years ago I bought a rebuilt starter with a lifetime guarantee (most FLAPS sell them) -- seems so much simpler to just replace the whole unit than futz around trying to fix the solenoid.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
vanjoe
Samba Member


Joined: December 25, 2009
Posts: 576
Location: Grover Beach,Ca
vanjoe is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When my starter went it almost left me stranded. I was on I5 going about 75 MPH and all of the sudden my van lost power. What happened is the starter engaged. I pulled off the freeway and it was idling fine. Proceeded with my trip and made it to my in laws. Got a new starter the next day and no problems ever since. The teeth were schredded on my old starter. Thank god the fly wheel was ok. While your at it replacing the starter install a hard start relay kit. I am very happy with mine. My starter doesn't drag anymore when I start it. Heres the link.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1066289
_________________
1987 Vanagon weekender Wolfsburg Edition.

"Why is there never time to do it right, but there is always time to do it twice?"

"Back to the basics!"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Huxmobile
Samba Member


Joined: June 16, 2008
Posts: 103
Location: SF Bay area
Huxmobile is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ahwahnee and vanjoe!
I like the idea of the hard start relay and really respect Jay Brown's products.


Anyone have experience with ASE (Alternator Starter Exchange) rebuilt starters? A buddy with a shop suggested them over the rebuilt Bosch starters. I guess they are all rebuilt these days, now the question is who to get it from.

Alternator Starter Exchange of San Francisco
2200 Jerrold Avenue # K, San Francisco, CA 94124-1034 (415) 282-4077 ‎

or VC
_________________
87 Westy 2.1L, manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
vanaru
Samba Member


Joined: November 02, 2005
Posts: 151
Location: Sykesville, Maryland
vanaru is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: hammer time Reply with quote

crawl under the van. small ball peen hammer... tap the solenoid. 47 times... try it again.
_________________
1962 sunroof beetle
1982 porsche 911 SC
1991 vanagon WRX powered
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Huxmobile
Samba Member


Joined: June 16, 2008
Posts: 103
Location: SF Bay area
Huxmobile is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:47 pm    Post subject: hammer time Reply with quote

damn it, I bought the wrong kind of hammer!
_________________
87 Westy 2.1L, manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
JunkYarDog
Samba Member


Joined: March 11, 2007
Posts: 667
Location: New Mexico
JunkYarDog is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have successfully disassymbled and cleaned starters and solenoids with success in the past. Between corrossion and dirt crud bulds up and will cause parts to stick. The nice thing about this is you get a chance to inspect the internals. One concern is if your brushes appear to be bad. It's not impossible but they are stamp welded in so it's no bolt on fix. I have used brushes from a golf starter and soldered them in Embarassed lasted a whole two weeks. But it got me to a point where I could spend $400 for a starter (German FLAPS price). However, if I had my mig back then I would not have had to buy a new one for a long time (years perhaps).

Short and to the point version:
1. Take it out
2. Take it appart
3. Clean it
4. Inspect it
5. Lube as needed
6. Put it back
7. Drive
_________________
I have never owned a VW I didn't like, but there have been a few Fords and Chevy's.
85' GL Sunroof
68' Beetle sedan
72' Chevy C10 (LWB Step)
(67' Volvo 122S pending)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon/Eurovan All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2013, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB