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Top Cylinder Lubricator Oiler
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randini
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:16 am    Post subject: Top Cylinder Lubricator Oiler Reply with quote

Gents,

This is a new one to me. I have seen ads for Top Cylinder Lubricator Oiler kits here on The Samba and elsewhere, and haven't the foggiest notion what they are or why I might need one. My '67 1600 SP is stock (other than being a 1600 in a '67) and I'm not searching for ways to sink more money into it but I am curious what service a Top Cylinder Lubricator Oiler might provide.

Thanks,
-Randy
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Zundfolge1432 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IT will seperate you from your money
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randini
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, that answers my question. Sort of like a carbon fiber hood and megaphone exhaust to make a Honda go faster.

"It all makes perfect sense, expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, shillings, and pence." (Appologies to Roger Waters.)

-Randy
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Bravo 1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny thing is that Judson Supercharger kits come with Upper Cylinder Oilers... hrmm, yep, I'm sure it's just a gimmick. Think

I'm pretty sure they help reduce engine wear by adding a small quantity of oil to your air/fuel mixture which keeps the cylinder walls coated and helps prolonge engine life. I can't aruge whether one of these is really necessary for a normally aspirated VW... but I think that since Judson added one to their kit, there has to be a reason behind it.

I will be running one on my stock engine when I get around to ordering one.
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Russ Wolfe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It lubricates the Super Charger.
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L572
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...kinda' like adding oil to your impact wrench, like you're supposed to.... Wink
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John Moxon Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top Cylinder Lubricator Oilers are nothing new. The Marvel Oiler was patented in 1948 and the Ampco Oiler in the early ‘50s. They work well supplying lubricating oil to the air/fuel mixture where it lubes the top end of the engine before being burn in the combustion process.

The real question you want answering is, does the oil used do any good? The oil used in both the Ampco and the Marvel Oiler is Marvel Mystery Oil. If you search this site and The Internet you’ll find a lot of people who use it and most have good things to say of it.

There is a new Marvel Oil website: http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/ which includes a forum: http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/index.php/forums/ where you will find how people use it and the benefits.

You’ll get a lot of disparaging remarks about Marvel Oil but they’re usually from people who have never used it.

Judson Superchargers need the lubricating effect of Marvel Oil and the Marvel and Ampco Oilers are the most effective way to supply it. For the normal Flat 4 you can add Marvel to the fuel tank but the Oiler in the engine bay loaded with enough lubrication for over 1000 miles is an efficient way to do it.

All the Ampco Oilers sold by George Folchi are NOS, so they have that vintage cool look as well as being a useful accessory.
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Zundfolge1432 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marvel mystery snake oil is nothing more than automatic transmission fluid with a mint fragrance added....... Millions of normally aspirated engines have covered billions of miles without using this system but I guess P.T. Barnum is right " Theres A Sucker Born Every Minute"

Party on Wayne and Garth Very Happy
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John Moxon Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
Marvel mystery snake oil is nothing more than automatic transmission fluid with a mint fragrance added....... Millions of normally aspirated engines have covered billions of miles without using this system but I guess P.T. Barnum is right " Theres A Sucker Born Every Minute"

Party on Wayne and Garth Very Happy


There speaks one who's never used it. I'd advise others to use the seach facility here and on Google.
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Zundfolge1432 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear John,

Did you ever get a dear John letter??? Very Happy If you are selling these things great I can see why you are all excited but from my standpoint of having been a mechanic here in the states since the 70s and having worked on VWs for so many years I cannot see the benifit of that which you are endorsing.....

Normally aspirated stock engines do not need upper cylinder lubrication beyond the oil control rings fitted at the factory and the splash lubrication which occurs inside the engine under normal operating conditions... What you are selling has a place along the other accessories and dress up items .....

So good luck I'm sure there are people who will buy things just because they look cool so you've got it made my friend .....
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mooks73
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the only modern engine that i know that uses this set up, is the mazda rotary motor.it has an external oil pump that pump oil to the intake manifold to help lubricate the apex seals.the seals are made of carbon fiber and some type of plastic.
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John Moxon Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all we need to get this straight; I have no financial interest in these oilers or Marvel Mystery Oil whatsoever. I have nothing to sell, just passing on my personal experience of having used a Marvel Oiler and Marvel Mystery Oil on my Judson Supercharged Beetle for 10 years.

I don't doubt your ability as a mechanic but to dismiss something in a Forum topic as "Snake Oil" isn't laying down facts when that is what has been requested.

Do the Oilers work? Yes they do. Does Marvel Mystery Oil work? Yes it did for me when I used it to lubricate and cool my Judson Supercharger.

All I've suggested is anyone who's interested in these Oilers and MMO to search on this site and others for information regarding them.

There are many highly trained mechanics out there who have used and recommend MMO over the last 80 years...there are, no doubt some who like you, think it's "Snake Oil."

All you need do is type, "Marvel Mystery Oil" into The Samba search engine and into "Google" do some reading and come to an informed decision.
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Zundfolge1432 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John I give up .... Very Happy You are right please excuse my ignorance..


Jim-
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John Moxon Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
John I give up .... Very Happy You are right please excuse my ignorance..


Jim-


Thanks Jim, I was sure you'd see the light. Wink
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Last edited by John Moxon on Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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johnanddes
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to quote a little book that has been in the glove box of millions of VWs:

NO additives should be used with HD oils (p.38 1964 Vw Type 1 owners manual)

And for anyone who does not know, HD means High detergent, not heavy duty
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vw57drvr
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not an additive to the oil, but the UPPER cylinder we are talking about. Oils of today are much different, and dont need so much detergent, so an additive will not deteriorate the oils lubricating function like it used to. MMO is like any other additive. The USER must form an intelligent decision based on any facts they can find, and the use of the product. What we can say is the MMO will not hurt the engine. It is a known fact that tranny fluid in the gas will help clean deposits on the valves and heads. So, with that fact in mind, and the statement that MMO is just tranny fluid, I think we can make an intelligent assumption that MMO SOMEWHAT helps. Will it add another 100,000 miles to your engine? Doubtful. It is, however, a different story for superchargers. They do keep the charger lubed. Be careful how you word questions in the forums, or you get too many comments that really take away from the spirit of what the forums are all about. The better question would be: Who has used the top cylinder oilers, and what are your thoughts?
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randini
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To quote vw57drvr: "Be careful how you word questions in the forums, or you get too many comments that really take away from the spirit of what the forums are all about. The better question would be: Who has used the top cylinder oilers, and what are your thoughts?"

Er, um, I originally posted the question and it was answered to my satisfaction by the third reply. I'm a fan of MMO and always have some around for many varied uses, but I'm not asking about inflatable dolls, either. I suppose one of the things I enjoy most about this forum is how tangents will sprout and the wealth of knowledge that earps-forth; it's like a pig in a poke because you never really know where this thread may go.

A few days ago I told a self-proclaimed newbie how and where to connect the speedometer cable other than just to the speedometer, and within twelve hours the post had expanded to a debate on the necessity of punctuation in posting a proper question.

I've never met vw57drvr and have no opinion of him other than anyone who shares my interest in this old metal will always have a seat at my table and a cold beer in front of him while we lie to each other about our rides, but was that meant for me? The part about phrasing my question such that the specific conundrum is adressed to the intuitively obvious level of the casual observer? ROFLMFAO, I hope so!

vw57drvr, you ever get to Northern Colorado, stop by for that chair and beer I mentioned, plus I have a new Torque Meister so you can check those rear brakes you've been putting off. That thing is sweet! I had the flywheel on-and-off four times yesterday setting the end play (the fourth time was to double-check my work) in less that an hour, less the time it took me to put another CD in the machine, grab a beer, and give my sweetie a squeeze, washing my hands several times during the interum.

So, now, where will this take us next?

-Randy
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vw57drvr
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the comment about phrasing your question was for you. I am alwasy weary of making any comments in the forums. Reason being? There are a lot of new people on here that do not care about the tangents these conversations get off on. I love reading the forums, as there is a lot of information. I, myself, am not a fan of the long drawn out debates based soley on someones opinion. Im not sure what you were getting at when you were pointing out that you had no opinion of me, other than sharing the love of VW's. If I ever get to your area I will have that chair and beer, but my brakes are fine, as I too have come to appreciate the beauty of the torque meister. Very Happy
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bill may
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the only time i have used a top oiler was in 1969 on my 63 beetle with a judson supercharger. i used ATF in the glass jar. since my engines are high mileage the worn cylinder liners and rings let enuff oil past that is self top lubing.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

randini wrote:
I suppose one of the things I enjoy most about this forum is how tangents will sprout and the wealth of knowledge that earps-forth; it's like a pig in a poke because you never really know where this thread may go.

A few days ago I told a self-proclaimed newbie how and where to connect the speedometer cable other than just to the speedometer, and within twelve hours the post had expanded to a debate on the necessity of punctuation in posting a proper question. Phrasing my question such that the specific conundrum is adressed to the intuitively obvious level of the casual observer? ROFLMFAO, I hope so! So, now, where will this take us next?
Randy


Thats why I continue to come back daily, this place is a riot and in between the riot good information is exchanged.... If you are ever up this way the offer of beer or a cup of coffee is extended to you and anyone else that posts here, hell you can even camp out back for a day or two with the horses... Very Happy

Jim-
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