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CLASSIC CAR GUY
Transport and Title Guru
Joined: August 09, 2010
Posts: 1608
Location: Phoenix AZ, but originally from Long Island NY
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 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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 get the correct one complete for a VW it includes the carb plate, contact George at Ampco 
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Vintage Volkswagen Sales and Service as well as Classics and Muslcecars all located here in Phoenix Arizona at www.rpmotorcars.com |
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Randall
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2004
Posts: 1403
Location: Orange County, Alta California, El Norte
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| CLASSIC CAR GUY wrote: |
| get the correct one complete for a VW it includes the carb plate, contact George at Ampco |
I was doing a search on Marvel Mystery Oil and the Ampco VW oiler kit and I came upon this thread. Here is the link to the Ampco site.
http://ampcolubes.com/products/vw_kit |
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vwsurfari
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2004
Posts: 75
Location: Orange County, California
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:12 pm Post subject: Top Oil.... |
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I run a fleet of T2 Campers with 2L FI motors, that we rent here in California.
These buses regularly get driven 12 to 20K mi per year, far more than most of the buses out there, I'll wager. The first several years we ran our company we were struggling to get anything more than 40-60k mi from the top ends of our air-cooled engines. Some times we got less than 5000 miles from a set of heads, or new P&C's.
We have experienced almost every sort of top end failure you can think of in the past 7 years. Because the buses get driven by many folks that don't have the sense to slow down and let the poor little underpowered air cooled engine have a chance at staying with-in it's cooling capabilities, we have endeavored to make them as "idiot proof" as we can. Let me tell you, (you likely already know) that it's an impossible task.
But we forge ahead. What have we tried?
Hardened valve seats,
sodium exhaust valves,
oversize and cold pressed valve seats,
lowering compression a tad,
running as rich a mix as we can get away with while still passing California smog,
cooler plugs,
meticulous attention to proper engine cooling tin,
proper engine bay seals,
running "premium" gas,
meticulous attention to distributor timing,
External oil cooling,
verbal and written warnings about how to drive in high ambient temps,
Etc, Etc, Etc.
After a pile of burnt pistons, burnt valves and dropped or regressed valve seats, not to mention the odd hole burnt through a head or piston top, we decided to start adding some Marvel's M.O. into the tanks and asked our clients to do so during the time they had the vehicles.
We began to see results the first summer we introduced the regimen 3 years ago. While we were getting 3 to 4 instances of the above mentioned failures each summer, after starting to add the M.M.O. we perceived a noticeable lessening of such failures.
The problem was, we could not be sure our clients were adding the M.M.O. at proper intervals, or in proper amounts. Two summers ago we added these oilers to 3 vehicles. The following summer those three did not have ONE failure of the sort mentioned above. We added oilers to all our air-cooled vehicles before this past summer. Last summer we had one dropped valve seat.
Do the oilers work? Well, all they do is meter a precise amount of Marvel's Mystery Oil into our induction stream of our motors. It is the M.M.O. that is saving our top ends.
Today's gas is extremely "dry", especially here in California. To make it worse, they change the mix for summertime to adjust for emissions (read "even drier"), plus we never know when we are getting ethanol mixed with the gas, which further strips lubrication off the surfaces it contacts.
These engines were never meant to operate under these conditions, designed as they were when gas was very "dirty", and adding this lubricant just can't hurt, and in our case we have really good anecdotal evidence that shows it definitely helps.
By the way... we still are successfully passing California smog tests even with them on and running, so I don't think they are gunking up the environment (or the insides of my motors).
My 2¢....
_________________
Bill & Diane Staggs
Vintage Surfari Wagons
[email protected]
79 Westy Eddie
78 HT Westy Nalu Imi
79 Westy Honu Li' u
79 Riviera Blu Maxx
79 Riviera Cardiff
79 Riviera Rell Sunn
78 Westy Abaco
82 Westy Hale Pua
84 Westy Lime Cello
85 Westy Fritz
78 Westy Albie
79 Westy Ala Lani
86 Westy Kukui Nut
85 Vanagon Morrison
79 Westy Malibu
97 Euro Winnie Mavericks
99 Euro Winnie San'O
99 Euro Winnie Encinitas
2002 Euro Winnie Trestles
2002 Euro Westy Ron Burgundy |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: SNAKE OIL or MYSTERY OIL? |
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| mick cassidy wrote: |
| well here in Los Angeles the gasoline is cut 10% by volume with ethanol. This will cut your mpg. |
Only slightly, I doubt most people will notice.
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| this will reduce the life of your motor. |
Absolutely false, as long as it's jetted correctly. If you jet for pure gas and run E10 pump gas, the engine will tend to run a bit lean. That can damage the engine, but don't blame the gas for your failure in knowing how to tune an engine properly.
| Quote: |
| it burns hotter and "dryer" |
More BS. Actually, the opposite is true. Ethanol burns cooler, but it also contains less energy than the same amount of gas. That's why you have to jet bigger when using it, or the engine might not run right. IMO most engines won't even notice the difference between 100% gas and pump E10, unless it's a high compression race engine tuned to within a hair's breadth of detonation in the first place. Then you might push it over the edge, but most engines have enough fudge factor built into them that makes the use of E10 a non-issue. The one thing I will mention is that some have told me E10 will rot fuel lines over time, so you need to make sure you have rubber hoses rated to handle alcohol. Do that, and you're not likely to experience issues running the same exact fuel as the rest of us.
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| it burns cleaner too |
True.
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| A mist of oil into the valves and rings cant hurt at all. |
Maybe not, but it won't help you any either...
Contamination of the charge will only result in less power being produced, since the oil dilutes some fuel and will not burn the same way. If you're into REAL performance (not just copying the way people bolted these things on in the 50's because of a sales pitch), you won't have one on your engine. If you want an engine to look period correct and people used to use these things, that's one thing. But calling it a 'performance' item is not accurate, unless it's combined with the Judson. I can see an honest need for it's use in that instance, since the oil would in fact lubricate the 'charger and help keep it cool.
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| Really if you apply some basic theory of say a two stroke motor which uses no oil in the crank case, rings and cyls are protected in the burn by the oil in the fuel introduced in the premix. |
Do you own a 2-stroke VW engine? Then none of this nonsensical drivel applies. 2-stroke engines add oil to the gas because it's their only means of lubrication; they cannot have an oil sump, because the crankcase is also part of the induction system. 4-stroke VW engines have their own oiling system, and have no requirement for additional oiling. You can bring any anecdotal or empirical 'evidence' you wish, but it doesn't make one iota of difference to the simple fact that oil is not needed in the intake system of any non-Judson VW engine. One person mentioned they had issues with dropped valves (or seats) in their camper. If it had a Type 4 engine, dropped seats due to overheating is a known issue, having nothing to do with the presence or lack of oil in the combustion chamber. Call Jake Raby, he will explain the whole thing to you, and provide his (expensive) fix.
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| a little PHYSICS can be applied here. its is the same exact principle, it has to protect the rings and pistons. |
'HAS' to do what, and by who's OPINION? Yours? Physics has nothing to do with is, it's a question of engineering.
Let's get technical for a second here.
'top cylinder lubrication': a film of oil on the cylinder walls is what the rings slide around on, so lack of lubrication in this area will only cause a very worn bore, seriously worn rings, and possibly scored piston skirts if the problem is allowed to fester for an extended period of time. It has nothing to do with valves, valve guides or seats.
If there is an issue with 'top cylinder lubrication', the issue can be fixed by making sure you're using the correct ring package, ensuring they are properly gapped, doing a proper break in on new engines, and using the correct weight and grade of oil in the engine. Blaming any other failure on 'top cylinder lubrication' is pointless, and goes against all the training any mechanic has ever had. It's like saying 'my muffler is loud, I must need a new air filter'.
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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vwsurfari
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2004
Posts: 75
Location: Orange County, California
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: Top Lube.. |
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As a kid, I remember that the companies producing gasoline for cars here in California (and elsewhere I'll assume) added lead to the gas as a way of reducing wear on the valves trains and piston rings of internal combustion engines.
I wonder how that lead worked? Was that all B.S. too? Or was it just some way of selling a lot of (unneeded) lead?
When the stuff was outlawed, gas companies tried all sorts of other stuff as "additives". Nowadays cars work just fine with out all that. Unfortunately, a lot of us here on The Samba drive vehicles that were designed when those additives were part of the "engineering".
In any case I'm trying to get a little more life from my motors, and if I can lower the operating temps a tiny bit, and get a little bit more lube in places where it might be getting too "dry", I'm ahead of the game.
T'was a day in the past when theory said if you sailed your ship out too far, you would slide off the edge of the world. In practice that was proven false.
_________________
Bill & Diane Staggs
Vintage Surfari Wagons
[email protected]
79 Westy Eddie
78 HT Westy Nalu Imi
79 Westy Honu Li' u
79 Riviera Blu Maxx
79 Riviera Cardiff
79 Riviera Rell Sunn
78 Westy Abaco
82 Westy Hale Pua
84 Westy Lime Cello
85 Westy Fritz
78 Westy Albie
79 Westy Ala Lani
86 Westy Kukui Nut
85 Vanagon Morrison
79 Westy Malibu
97 Euro Winnie Mavericks
99 Euro Winnie San'O
99 Euro Winnie Encinitas
2002 Euro Winnie Trestles
2002 Euro Westy Ron Burgundy |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Top Lube.. |
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| vwsurfari wrote: |
| As a kid, I remember that the companies producing gasoline for cars here in California (and elsewhere I'll assume) added lead to the gas as a way of reducing wear on the valves trains and piston rings of internal combustion engines. I wonder how that lead worked? Was that all B.S. too? Or was it just some way of selling a lot of (unneeded) lead? |
Tetraethyl lead was added to gas back in the olden days because it kept the seats lubricated and reduced knocking, we have hardened steel inserts and higher octane now so it's not needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Tetraethyl_lead
The lead would tend to build up a protective layer on moving parts, which made them last longer. It also contributed to deposits in the combustion chamber. It was outlawed on public roads some time ago, because of it's hazard as a poison.
| Quote: |
| When the stuff was outlawed, gas companies tried all sorts of other stuff as "additives". Nowadays cars work just fine with out all that. Unfortunately, a lot of us here on The Samba drive vehicles that were designed when those additives were part of the "engineering". |
I don't think VW's ever needed leaded gas, but I could be wrong. If so, hardened inserts are likely available to convert the heads to unleaded operation.
| Quote: |
| In any case I'm trying to get a little more life from my motors, and if I can lower the operating temps a tiny bit, and get a little bit more lube in places where it might be getting too "dry", I'm ahead of the game. |
If it's running cool you're after, an external oil cooler works wonders on heavily worked campers and Busses. Always get as much air into the engine compartment as possible, and make sure all the tins are in place and working.
| Quote: |
| T'was a day in the past when theory said if you sailed your ship out too far, you would slide off the edge of the world. In practice that was proven false. |
Glad those days are long over. 
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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vwsurfari
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2004
Posts: 75
Location: Orange County, California
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: Oil dripping from my head and beard... |
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| Quote: |
| If so, hardened inserts are likely available to convert the heads to unleaded operation. |
We use hardened valve seats. We were still getting (random) seat regression. Felt that getting some lubricant there, even just a little, might help. Having one bad seat costs about $800 in parts and (mostly) labor to repair, assuming I don't find anything else that needs fixing. I can buy a lot of MMO for that, and save me untold headache.
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| If it's running cool you're after, an external oil cooler works wonders on heavily worked campers and Busses. Always get as much air into the engine compartment as possible, and make sure all the tins are in place and working. |
Yeah, we did all that too...(see my 1st post) Just could not figure out how the cooling of the oil by some 30-40 degrees or more could translate to effective cooling all that way out at the combustion chamber. Is that an engineering problem? I know it helped, don't get me wrong, but when the hottest part of the motor is so far away (relatively) from where and what the oil cooler is cooling.... It didn't seem to be getting the job done. (By the way, next engine we build for these gets piston bottom "squirters")
| Quote: |
| Glad those days are long over. |
Well, I hope the days of practical experience proving (or dis-proving) theory, engineering or otherwise, are NOT over! Otherwise a lot of "It'll never work" nay-saying would prevail.
_________________
Bill & Diane Staggs
Vintage Surfari Wagons
[email protected]
79 Westy Eddie
78 HT Westy Nalu Imi
79 Westy Honu Li' u
79 Riviera Blu Maxx
79 Riviera Cardiff
79 Riviera Rell Sunn
78 Westy Abaco
82 Westy Hale Pua
84 Westy Lime Cello
85 Westy Fritz
78 Westy Albie
79 Westy Ala Lani
86 Westy Kukui Nut
85 Vanagon Morrison
79 Westy Malibu
97 Euro Winnie Mavericks
99 Euro Winnie San'O
99 Euro Winnie Encinitas
2002 Euro Winnie Trestles
2002 Euro Westy Ron Burgundy
Last edited by vwsurfari on Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Oil dripping from my head and beard... |
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| vwsurfari wrote: |
| We use hardened valve seats. We were still getting (random) seat regression. |
Again, this is a known issue with T4 heads related to overheating not lubrication/lack thereof. If you're renting the things out to people who don't know any better, it would make sense to me to either drop the compression to the point where no harm can be done (~7:1) or install a knock sensing EFI system.
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| Yeah, we did all that too...(see my 1st post) Just could not figure out how the of cooling the oil down by some 30-40 degrees or more could translate to effective cooling all that way out at the combustion chamber. |
I won't help head temps much, but I figure cool oil in the head is better than hot when it's being lugged. It could even be that the head temps are related to poor engine timing, seen it a million times. Engine runs great with nothing in it, but put in 5 people+gear and the motor cries uncle because the timing is overly advanced for operation with heavy loads. Could be a million different things, but keeping head temps in check is more important than anything oil temperature related. Fix that, you won't have any more problems.
| Quote: |
| Well, I hope the days of practical experience proving (or dis-proving) theory, engineering or otherwise, are NOT over! Otherwise a lot of "It'll never work" nay-saying would prevail. |
Personal experience for me trumps what the book says every single time, but in the case of 'top cylinder oiling' the verdict is it's bunk except for Judson use.
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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vwsurfari
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2004
Posts: 75
Location: Orange County, California
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:30 pm Post subject: Drip...Drip...Drip... |
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The way I see it heat and friction start to become the same thing in extreme, critical operating situations.
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| put in 5 people+gear and the motor cries uncle |
I'm seeing our vans operate in these extremes, which also include ambient temps in the 100˚ f+ zone. So,
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| Always get as much air into the engine compartment as possible, |
getting more already kinda over heated air in there doesn't do all that much. I can't send a technician with the van to monitor the distributor advance every time the bus changes altitude, temperature, load, or fuel quality. And installing
| Quote: |
| a knock sensing EFI system |
is ludicrously expensive as well as unproven.
What I'm left with is: the only thing that I know will help is either 1.lower the temperature or 2. add more lubrication. I think either would do the trick. But since I am most interested in lowering the temperature in a pretty specific area of the engine, and I've technically done all I can to deliver cooling air there, then, because I have at my disposal a proven delivery system for that purpose, adding lubrication seems to be the best alternative. We are not after "performance" per se, but an extra-efficient friction reduction technique, as well as some localized cooling, if that is possible. (Think: reduce friction•ergo• reduce produced heat)
You say:
| Quote: |
| 2-stroke engines add oil to the gas because it's their only means of lubrication |
If I follow correctly, this is an affirmation of the understanding that this mixture (with it's load of friction reducing lubricant) IS effectively delivered to all the important parts of the (2-stroke)engine via this method. (That is: Vaporized within the fuel/air mixture.) I don't think my 4 stroke VW motor knows that it is a
| Quote: |
| 4-stroke VW engines [that] have their own oiling system |
and thus should not be receiving any of it's lubrication in such a fashion. I would guess any lubrication delivered by any means is happily (if that's possible) deposited on any surface it touches.
Now, I would agree that the lubrication will be largely combusted upon ignition, (same as it is in the 2-stroke, but it seems to work fine), but that does not alter the fact that a swish of lubrication prior to ignition (encased in the fuel-air mix) delivered through the intake system ( touching valves, valve guides, and valve seats) and onto the inner walls of the piston /cylinder interface (including at least the top compression ring, maybe more) certainly will have a salutary effect. Don't you dare deny it! I just don't see any obvious cancelling down-side... other than modest cost and a little maintenance routine.
I'll admit to a hefty bit of skepticism on my own part when I initially considered this set-up. Marvel's Mystery Oil??? Heh! Sounds like Sister Sally's Snake Oil! That is why we did not put these on all our cars all at once. Not a truly scientific double blind test, but we gave this some time to prove or dis-prove it's effectiveness. Cars that had one out lasted the ones that didn't. Simple. As the Monkeys once said:"Now I'm a believer, not a trace of doubt in my mind!"
Lastly, I want to ask you directly: can tell us if you have used this product, Marvel's Mystery Oil,
| Quote: |
Personal experience for me trumps what the book says every single time, but in the case of 'top cylinder oiling' the verdict is it's bunk except for Judson use. |
or any such delivery system and thus have direct firsthand experience, or if, as it seems, you are basing your "verdict" on opinion and theory?
_________________
Bill & Diane Staggs
Vintage Surfari Wagons
[email protected]
79 Westy Eddie
78 HT Westy Nalu Imi
79 Westy Honu Li' u
79 Riviera Blu Maxx
79 Riviera Cardiff
79 Riviera Rell Sunn
78 Westy Abaco
82 Westy Hale Pua
84 Westy Lime Cello
85 Westy Fritz
78 Westy Albie
79 Westy Ala Lani
86 Westy Kukui Nut
85 Vanagon Morrison
79 Westy Malibu
97 Euro Winnie Mavericks
99 Euro Winnie San'O
99 Euro Winnie Encinitas
2002 Euro Winnie Trestles
2002 Euro Westy Ron Burgundy |
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vwsurfari
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2004
Posts: 75
Location: Orange County, California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I don't think VW's ever needed leaded gas, but I could be wrong. |
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/68bus/page17.jpg
Interesting to note not only the reference to using "anti knock" formulas, but that 91 octane is recommended. Today's 91 octane gas is classified as such using a different metric, and is a much lower rating than the 91 we got in those days. I think everyone already knows that...
_________________
Bill & Diane Staggs
Vintage Surfari Wagons
[email protected]
79 Westy Eddie
78 HT Westy Nalu Imi
79 Westy Honu Li' u
79 Riviera Blu Maxx
79 Riviera Cardiff
79 Riviera Rell Sunn
78 Westy Abaco
82 Westy Hale Pua
84 Westy Lime Cello
85 Westy Fritz
78 Westy Albie
79 Westy Ala Lani
86 Westy Kukui Nut
85 Vanagon Morrison
79 Westy Malibu
97 Euro Winnie Mavericks
99 Euro Winnie San'O
99 Euro Winnie Encinitas
2002 Euro Winnie Trestles
2002 Euro Westy Ron Burgundy |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Drip...Drip...Drip... |
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| vwsurfari wrote: |
| I'm seeing our vans operate in these extremes, which also include ambient temps in the 100˚ f+ zone. So getting more already kinda over heated air in there doesn't do all that much. I can't send a technician with the van to monitor the distributor advance every time the bus changes altitude, temperature, load, or fuel quality. And installing a knock sensing EFI system is ludicrously expensive as well as unproven. |
Sounds like you're quite content to keep spending money replacing burnt pistons and heads with dropped valves, then. I'm not slamming you, it's just that I can't understand why someone with such an obvious need for EFI would stay away from it. The computer will tailor the timing curve based on knock, intake temp, engine speed, engine temp, and a whole host of other variables. On a long enough timeline it pays for itself, since you won't have to worry about torched parts anymore. Just seems like a no-brainer to me.
Unproven? Um, seems pretty proven to me seeing as all engines are now equipped with it... If you're talking 'proven' on a VW engine, there's plenty of people doing it- myself included. It's not such a misunderstood black box anymore, there's no magic and nothing to be afraid of. And since you can use crank triggered timing, you get performance right out the box since no distributor will ever be as good. The accuracy is unmatched.
| Quote: |
| the only thing that I know will help is either 1.lower the temperature or 2. add more lubrication. I think either would do the trick. |
I think in your case it would be more cost effective to simply make the engine able to do less work- that is, lower the compression ratio. If you lower the compression ratios of the engine you build, they will be better able to cope with the extreme loads placed on them and be better able to tolerate changes in fuel quality, ect.
| Quote: |
You say:
| Quote: |
| 2-stroke engines add oil to the gas because it's their only means of lubrication |
If I follow correctly, this is an affirmation of the understanding that this mixture (with it's load of friction reducing lubricant) IS effectively delivered to all the important parts of the (2-stroke)engine via this method. (That is: Vaporized within the fuel/air mixture.) I don't think my 4 stroke VW motor knows that it is a
| Quote: |
| 4-stroke VW engines [that] have their own oiling system |
and thus should not be receiving any of it's lubrication in such a fashion. I would guess any lubrication delivered by any means is happily (if that's possible) deposited on any surface it touches. |
It doesn't have to know anything, the question is whether it's required or not- and it's not. A 2-stroke engine's only means of lubrication is the oil in the gas, take that away it locks up solid. 2-strokes also don't have oil control rings, only 2 compression rings. And you're right, it is deposited: into your combustion chambers and the tops of your pistons. The point is that a 4-stroke engine has the means to lubricate itself, beyond which no more lubrication is required. Adding any oil to the fuel just lowers the octane of the fuel by diluting it, which in all reality probably increases the probability of detonation rather than lowering it. Whatever lubricating properties are added by using MMO are, IMO, negated by contaminating the fuel charge.
| Quote: |
| but that does not alter the fact that a swish of lubrication prior to ignition (encased in the fuel-air mix) delivered through the intake system (touching valves, valve guides, and valve seats) and onto the inner walls of the piston /cylinder interface (including at least the top compression ring, maybe more) certainly will have a salutary effect. Don't you dare deny it! |
But you're missing the point: 4-stroke engines are deigned to get the proper oiling every time the piston decends, there is no requirement for additional oiling from any other source. The oil control ring scrapes most of the oil off the bore, what film is left is there for the piston and top 2 compression rings. I think you're confusing oiling and cooling. If your engines are getting too hot and no amount of air will help, you simply need to reduce the amount of work they are cabale of doing which means lower the compression or shorten the cam. What's likely happening in your case is the damaging heat is still there, the extra oil is just prolonging the inevitable. You haven't fixed anything per se, just slowed down the process. If that makes you happy, fine. But I would use lower compression, smaller cams, and EFI if I was letting the unwashed masses drive my air cooled vehicles. It's just asking for trouble.
| Quote: |
| Lastly, I want to ask you directly: can tell us if you have used this product, Marvel's Mystery Oil or any such delivery system and thus have direct firsthand experience, or if, as it seems, you are basing your "verdict" on opinion and theory? |
I love MMO, but only as a preservative or cleaner. I use it mostly for prelubing hydraulic lifters, or as a protective coating on parts that sit for long periods of time. I would only put it in an engine I don't care about, to nurse it if it was on it's last legs or something. I'm not into bandaids, if the engine has a problem I fix the problem.
Again, I urge you to think about EFI again. It's not what you think...
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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vwsurfari
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2004
Posts: 75
Location: Orange County, California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: drip, drip, drivel.. |
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Miniman,
Theory, schmeory!
You obviously don't get it...
Saying I should lower the efficiency of my already relatively inefficient motor as a way of solving this problem is ludicrous. Seems to me if I understand thermodynamics, if they have to work even harder they will only run HOTTER!
Adding $1200+ after market electronics, versus a time tested and CHEAP (less than $80) oiler that is obviously proving effective (regardless of your insistence "it's not required" in theory malarkey) is like sticking your head in the sand (or other orifices).
Why, oh why, can't you just let us be happy that this WORKS?
The worst thing about your advise is: You haven't and won't try it your self.
Come up with some time tested results (not your theory) OR:
Butt the heck out!!!
_________________
Bill & Diane Staggs
Vintage Surfari Wagons
[email protected]
79 Westy Eddie
78 HT Westy Nalu Imi
79 Westy Honu Li' u
79 Riviera Blu Maxx
79 Riviera Cardiff
79 Riviera Rell Sunn
78 Westy Abaco
82 Westy Hale Pua
84 Westy Lime Cello
85 Westy Fritz
78 Westy Albie
79 Westy Ala Lani
86 Westy Kukui Nut
85 Vanagon Morrison
79 Westy Malibu
97 Euro Winnie Mavericks
99 Euro Winnie San'O
99 Euro Winnie Encinitas
2002 Euro Winnie Trestles
2002 Euro Westy Ron Burgundy |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: drip, drip, drivel.. |
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| vwsurfari wrote: |
| Saying I should lower the efficiency of my already relatively inefficient motor as a way of solving this problem is ludicrous. Seems to me if I understand thermodynamics, if they have to work even harder they will only run HOTTER! |
No, it's the other way around. If the engine is capable of making, say, 120hp wide open and is overheating at that level, reduce the power output of the engine so the cooling system can cope. This way it can still be driven with the pedal to the floor all the time, which is what happens to just about all T2's in my experience, and it won't be at any risk of overheating. The cooling system can only shed so much heat, when you go beyond that point overheating is the result. So by my example if overheating occurs at 120hp (or whatever it happens to be), reduce engine output to 90hp and see if things improve. That doesn't mean you have to sacrifice much torque, it can still have plenty of that. I would think 100lbs of torque would get the average man around just fine, but I never owned a camper.
Point is you have the engine do less work, so less heat is generated. It sounds backwards, but it's true. You could also have the chambers and piston tops coated with ceramic, but you already said you're not into expensive fixes...
| Quote: |
| Adding $1200+ after market electronics, versus a time tested and CHEAP (less than $80) oiler that is obviously proving effective (regardless of your insistence "it's not required" in theory malarkey) is like sticking your head in the sand (or other orifices). |
'Required'
If it were required, a lot more people than just camper owners with overheating engines would be using them... Empirical sure, but it's still a valid point. You don't need extra oil, it's not an oil starvation issue. If anything, water injection is right up your alley. Try dumping the oil and using water once, you might just be surprised. The water will flash to steam inside the combustion chamber, absorbing heat as it does so which should combat the temps and stave off detonation. Some use 50/50 mix of water/alcohol, use what you prefer.
| Quote: |
| Why, oh why, can't you just let us be happy that this WORKS? |
Because strictly speaking, it doesn't. You might be thinking 'you say tomato...', but the fact is that the extra oil is not removing much heat if any. It's not addressing the actual problem- which is excessive heat, and the reason why I call it a band aid fix. What might be happening is that since the oil is contaminating the charge, the engine's output might already be reduced which is leading to the longer lifespan. Or the oil might be coating the parts so that they can resist heat related failure longer, but dealing with the heat is still a better idea.
Maybe I should just say there's a much better way to attack this issue, and we can agree to disagree? Putting oil into the incoming charge is not how I would deal with this issue, but if it works for you who's to argue?
| Quote: |
| The worst thing about your advise is: You haven't and won't try it your self. |
I don't need to, I have digital EFI controlling my engine remember? That's how I chose to deal with the issue of how the engine operates. If it gets too hot, timing gets pulled automatically. I have no need for oil injectors, I'll leave that for the 2-cycle outboard motors.
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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vwsurfari
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2004
Posts: 75
Location: Orange County, California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:45 pm Post subject: one more time.. |
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My dear Miniman,
Your theoretical ramblings are interesting and thought provoking despite the flaws.
But what I really hear you saying is that I'm living in fantasy land and the results I'm seeing must be an illusion. Its pretty condescending, especially when you seem to have your own fantasy world. (Less power doing the same work = less heat produced??? If that were the case, well, you've just tuned the Hi-perf world on its head!) And Oh YEAH! I would cream my shorts if these motors were producing 120hp!
I'm not adverse to spending money to fix this problem, just ask my mechanic. Before, I tried everything that seemed practical to optimize cooling and eliminate wear. We DID talk about ceramic coatings (necessitating entire rebuilds of every engine we own:12 so far) and water injection, but felt there might be other solutions, easier to implement without inventing some contraption. Hey! We're not the first guys to try and solve this T4 problem. We STARTED OUT using all the known "cures" for this valve/heat/burnt/issue. Some guys even said, "just have to live with these heads wearing out every 15 to 30 k miles."
So, I have spent the last 7 years making hard practical observations on these specific vehicles. Take it for what it's worth. We decided if we couldn't make it any cooler, maybe we could make it slicker. Less wear.
Then after much debate, 3 years ago we chose to add the MMO in the gas tank just for one summer season. (when we were getting all the failures) Shazam... Presto! Fewer breakdowns. The next summer we tried 3 cars with oilers and three similar cars with out. (MMO in the tanks tho) Again the three with the oilers: One regressed valve seat. (The ones with out oilers but MMO in the tank got similar results.) This past summer with oilers in every air cooled VW, we were blissfully free of any top end failures. NONE. ZERO. ZIP. NADA.
If all you say is accurate, then using this MMO should be causing me more problems, not less? That is what you are saying, right?
Well, we're still waiting.....
It seems so simple to do this, especially since it's working.
Yet, you say it can't, and doesn't....
I happily wait for your theoretical conclusions to bear their bitter fruit.
I was just hoping to help some folks with a simple solution from direct practical observations on this topic, based on my personal experience, not on theory.
I didn't want to go to the mattresses over it.
_________________
Bill & Diane Staggs
Vintage Surfari Wagons
[email protected]
79 Westy Eddie
78 HT Westy Nalu Imi
79 Westy Honu Li' u
79 Riviera Blu Maxx
79 Riviera Cardiff
79 Riviera Rell Sunn
78 Westy Abaco
82 Westy Hale Pua
84 Westy Lime Cello
85 Westy Fritz
78 Westy Albie
79 Westy Ala Lani
86 Westy Kukui Nut
85 Vanagon Morrison
79 Westy Malibu
97 Euro Winnie Mavericks
99 Euro Winnie San'O
99 Euro Winnie Encinitas
2002 Euro Winnie Trestles
2002 Euro Westy Ron Burgundy |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: one more time.. |
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| vwsurfari wrote: |
| what I really hear you saying is that I'm living in fantasy land and the results I'm seeing must be an illusion. Its pretty condescending, especially when you seem to have your own fantasy world. |
I'm not here to launch an attack, only to tell you the truth. Don't want to believe it? Your problem, not mine.
| Quote: |
| Less power doing the same work = less heat produced??? If that were the case, well, you've just tuned the Hi-perf world on its head! And Oh YEAH! I would cream my shorts if these motors were producing 120hp! |
That was probably a bad way to say it, but the basic premise is that if you exceed the cooling capability of the engine you're headed for problems. I sometimes have trouble getting my thoughts into words, it's a curse. But if you lower the compression you also usually increase the detonation threshold, which for a heavy camper should be a good thing. The holed pistons you spoke about previously were probably caused by detonation, so making sure the ignition is dead nuts accurate would be a good thing. Have you tried retarding the timing, or having the distributor curved to a more optimal setting?
| Quote: |
| I'm not adverse to spending money to fix this problem, just ask my mechanic. Before, I tried everything that seemed practical to optimize cooling and eliminate wear. We DID talk about ceramic coatings (necessitating entire rebuilds of every engine we own:12 so far) and water injection, but felt there might be other solutions, easier to implement without inventing some contraption. Hey! We're not the first guys to try and solve this T4 problem. We STARTED OUT using all the known "cures" for this valve/heat/burnt/issue. Some guys even said, "just have to live with these heads wearing out every 15 to 30 k miles." |
Hate to tell ya but if you're not willing to try a few things, those guys might just be right. Chances are you're operating in an environment that's simply not compatible with the engines norms, and it's just plain being pushed over the edge. In that case, I would look at a different power plant. I ran into the same thing on my Corvair: runs great up to 85 degrees outside temp, but go much past 90 and it pings and runs like ass. Simple answer is, it's just plain too hot to expect the engine to work like it's supposed to. These engines have limits, it sounds like you ask them to push those limits every day. Failures might just be the nature of the beast in your situation.
| Quote: |
| Then after much debate, 3 years ago we chose to add the MMO in the gas tank just for one summer season. (when we were getting all the failures) Shazam... Presto! Fewer breakdowns. The next summer we tried 3 cars with oilers and three similar cars with out. (MMO in the tanks tho) Again the three with the oilers: One regressed valve seat. (The ones with out oilers but MMO in the tank got similar results.) This past summer with oilers in every air cooled VW, we were blissfully free of any top end failures. NONE. ZERO. ZIP. NADA. |
Geography matters here: I seem to recall that last summer was unseasonably cool, was that the case where you were? Might explain things a little. This is why it's important to collect a lot of data points, or it's just anecdotal.
| Quote: |
| If all you say is accurate, then using this MMO should be causing me more problems, not less? That is what you are saying, right? |
I'm saying that you're just delaying the inevitable, and eventually you will see the same types of failures again. It's just going to take more time, that's all. If more time between a rebuild is what you want, you might be happy with the oiler. I would personally be happier making the engine operate outside any condition that would tend to place it at risk. That's not always possible, but I try.
| Quote: |
| I happily wait for your theoretical conclusions to bear their bitter fruit. |
I don't want your engines to blow up, that's why I'm trying to get you to think outside the box. You're interested in saving money, right? If so, isn't what I'm saying at least worth some consideration?
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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vwsurfari
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2004
Posts: 75
Location: Orange County, California
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Where do I start?
I know about the heat, I know about detonation, I know about timing, I know about compression, I know, I know!
My 6 buses have traveled an accumulated 324000 miles in the past 3 years using the stuff and we are now suffering fewer problems than before. Talk about "data points"!
I'll try anything that makes sense financially and practically. Remember, I have to multiply anything I do by 6 to be effective fleet wide. I'm not an average user.
I'm aware I'm only delaying the "inevitable", and that is absolutely my goal! To expect these motors to last forever under the use I give them is true fantasy."Eventually" I'll have to rebuild. It's just that, using the MMO delivered through a metering system is working at making that time come later rather than sooner. That not only saves me money it makes me money. The more days I have these buses on the road, the more money I can make.
So YES! I am getting good results and I am VERY satisfied with them to this point.
I think that my experience can be translated to individual users.
This is all I am reporting:
MMO delivered to VW engines through a automatic metering device WORKS in saving wear and tear. It does NOT prevent all wear and tear, but if anyone, anyone I say, uses this method, they WILL see improved longevity to the top end (P&C, and Valve Train). That is worth noting.
If anyone asked me, I would tell them it works just dandy, and irregardless someone's engineering book knowledge, theoretical arguments, or nay saying, I have proved it to my own personal satisfaction over a 3 year, quarter million mile trial period.
Take it or leave it smart guys!
OUT!
_________________
Bill & Diane Staggs
Vintage Surfari Wagons
[email protected]
79 Westy Eddie
78 HT Westy Nalu Imi
79 Westy Honu Li' u
79 Riviera Blu Maxx
79 Riviera Cardiff
79 Riviera Rell Sunn
78 Westy Abaco
82 Westy Hale Pua
84 Westy Lime Cello
85 Westy Fritz
78 Westy Albie
79 Westy Ala Lani
86 Westy Kukui Nut
85 Vanagon Morrison
79 Westy Malibu
97 Euro Winnie Mavericks
99 Euro Winnie San'O
99 Euro Winnie Encinitas
2002 Euro Winnie Trestles
2002 Euro Westy Ron Burgundy |
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John Moxon 
Samba Moderator
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 13958
Location: Southampton U.K.
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xilly
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2005
Posts: 171
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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I just bought one from George
Very easy to install and top quality 
William
------------------------------
shano63 wrote:
Hey Russ, here's a few on eBay now. The one's from New Milford Ct are from George.
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197....Categories
get the correct one complete for a VW it includes the carb plate, contact George at Ampco |
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morymob
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007
Posts: 4683
Location: east-tn
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| vwsurfari wrote: |
Where do I start?
I know about the heat, I know about detonation, I know about timing, I know about compression, I know, I know!
My 6 buses have traveled an accumulated 324000 miles in the past 3 years using the stuff and we are now suffering fewer problems than before. Talk about "data points"!
I'll try anything that makes sense financially and practically. Remember, I have to multiply anything I do by 6 to be effective fleet wide. I'm not an average user.
I'm aware I'm only delaying the "inevitable", and that is absolutely my goal! To expect these motors to last forever under the use I give them is true fantasy."Eventually" I'll have to rebuild. It's just that, using the MMO delivered through a metering system is working at making that time come later rather than sooner. That not only saves me money it makes me money. The more days I have these buses on the road, the more money I can make.
So YES! I am getting good results and I am VERY satisfied with them to this point.
I think that my experience can be translated to individual users.
This is all I am reporting:
MMO delivered to VW engines through a automatic metering device WORKS in saving wear and tear. It does NOT prevent all wear and tear, but if anyone, anyone I say, uses this method, they WILL see improved longevity to the top end (P&C, and Valve Train). That is worth noting.
If anyone asked me, I would tell them it works just dandy, and irregardless someone's engineering book knowledge, theoretical arguments, or nay saying, I have proved it to my own personal satisfaction over a 3 year, quarter million mile trial period.
Take it or leave it smart guys!
OUT! |
Seems to me this is about as much variety of testing as needed to see if the MMO sys helps any. So Miniman , suck it up and let the testing continue, u have your ideas and we 'ALL' have our own, testing will always get rid of the bad ideas, my 2-cts. |
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mick cassidy
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2009
Posts: 136
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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quote from mini man "Absolutely false"
well there is always the 1 person who disagrees ... i chose to run M.M.O. because i spent a lot of $$ on my motor and after i ran the motor for 15k miles i pulled the heads and switched them the inside was spotless and at $3- a quart why not ?? the cyls showed no wear i have an air compressor that runs 8 hours a day the past 12 years and it has M.M.O. in it we had the engineers on my job do some research on it and the molecules in it are about 1/2 the size or a regular oil molecule. interesting there are those who disagree and there are those who choose to venture forward |
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