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Kubel Nick
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Joined: August 12, 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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 Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe he was referring to the "spinning swastikas" logo?
On that subject; VW never had a "true" swastika as part of their logo so if there is a swastika hubcap I doubt it was factory produced. Here's some of their ideas before settling on the final spinning logo logo (note that the center logo has overlapping "V" & "W" that makes it look like a VVV as their "w" with an extra hump and a W as their "v", kind of interesting):
the spinning KDF logo hubcaps were produced for a short period of time (but maybe not into a store bought VW??), though some people believe it's a modern make-belief repro. I thought I scanned my Kubel history book with a prototype with the spinning logo hubcaps clearly on it. But here's factory pict though only a drawing:
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zoti
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Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 2061
Location: Plano, TX USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| I sent him the picture. |
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usariemen
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Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 1745
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Not only a drawing.
I have two private taken original paper pics from a KdF car promotion event where the cars where shown to the public. They had the hubcaps with the "flying" swastika on. I think they where only on very early cars, but they existed.
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Last edited by usariemen on Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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neil smart
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Joined: February 25, 2001
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Have you seen this http://gallery.mac.com/neilsmart#100157
I am currently having the pages translated as they are in a very old Germanic font and the language used is a very HIGH Standard
It talks about the ethos of why the KDF was built and was written and printed in 1939,
Neil  |
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Andi K
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Joined: March 03, 2005
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: |
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Hi, I'm new here.
On this picture one can see also the hubcab with the early KDF logo:
[url][/url]
But real swastikas were never on a KDF, especially not on a car that was produced in 1945, because all 1945 produced Beetles (Type 60 or 82e) were produced AFTER the surrender of the Nazis!
Last edited by Andi K on Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kdf38
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 896
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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I like those cars/pics a lot.
Mike
1947 VW |
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zoti
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 2061
Location: Plano, TX USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Andi K wrote: |
Hi, I'm new here.
On this picture one can see also the hubcab with the early KDF logo:
[url][/url]
But real swastikas were never on a KDF, especially not on a car that was produced in 1945, because all 1945 produced Beetles (Type 60 or 82e) were produced AFTER the surrender of the Nazis! |
I can clearly see a swastika on the licence plate of this car.
The Nazis surrended in May of 45. That's 5 months into 1945. The car in question (the one in the story I heard) was taken off the production line at the factory and shipped to the US. Since it was mentioned it has Swastikas on it then it was before the end of the war and the Americans only took over the KDF factory around April 45 then it is very reasonable it had some Nazi markings on it.
I do believe it is very possible my friend is confusing the flying swastika with a regular swasika. |
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Freak182
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Joined: February 25, 2008
Posts: 244
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: |
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The logo on the plate is like this:
I've never seen it on a car, only in documents, doesn't mean it wasn't put on the car, but I doubt it. Also, the Americans didn't take over the production (actually not take over but rebuild and restart) of the VW, it was the British Army. With the way the British felt about the Nazis, I'd be extremely surprised if they would allow anything to get out like that after June of '45. Before that, I'd think the Germans had enough to do losing the war and struggling to build what they could out of bombed-out factories to turn out a one-off item as insignificant as a hubcap but I guess anything is possible. |
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Kubel Nick
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Joined: August 12, 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Even if there is a swastika logo on the license plates, remember that license plates weren't made by VW. |
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Andi K
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Joined: March 03, 2005
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: |
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This license plates were just for promotion purposes. The picture above is a close- up from the introduction of the first produced KDF-cars from the Volkswagen factory in 1941. (all before produced prototypes were produced in Porsche's Garage or at Mercedes - Benz factory):
These first cars can be seen also in this picture:
The KDF-1 just means its the first KDF car from Wolfsburg (or better "City of the KDF-car"), and the above name on the smaller plate is the Nazi who received this first car.
According to the official archive, the KDF-car production was stopped after the last allied bombing in August 1944. Only the Kübel were produced further on until April 1945. The tools for the Beetle were under the destroyed Hall1. Also the Schwimmwagen production was ceased.
In my opinion its very unlikely that a Beetle was produced in 1945 before November 45 (this is the date were the first beetle (type 11) is produced under allied control, according the official archive. Further on, in early 1945 the US were still an enemy, and although the allied surely have captured some Kübel before, it makes no sense to send millitary "technology" straight from the lines to the enemy....
btw I have all this data from the book of Dr. Wiersch "Die Käfer-Chronik" (the author was the long time director of the VW Museum in Wolfsburg) |
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Kubel Nick
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Joined: August 12, 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Andi K wrote: |
| ...of the first produced KDF-cars from the Volkswagen factory in 1941. (all before produced prototypes were produced in Porsche's Garage or at Mercedes - Benz factory) |
Umm.. How can they have a finished model made before the prototypes? Those are just a lineup of 1941 cars, not prototypes since the KDF Beetles were first built in 1938 (original official prototype started 1934) |
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Andi K
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Joined: March 03, 2005
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Kubel Nick wrote: |
| Andi K wrote: |
| ...of the first produced KDF-cars from the Volkswagen factory in 1941. (all before produced prototypes were produced in Porsche's Garage or at Mercedes - Benz factory) |
Umm.. How can they have a finished model made before the prototypes? Those are just a lineup of 1941 cars, not prototypes since the KDF Beetles were first built in 1938 (original official prototype started 1934) |
The cars in the pictures are the first cars that were produced in the Volkwagen factory (thats whats the sign in the little picture, and the writing in the bigger picture says). The prototypes and the VW303 and VW38/39 series were not produced in the factory. The VW303 and VW38/39 were built for testing (as the VW37 series before). I would count them as prototypes as well, but thats a matter of opinion. |
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Val1950
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Joined: August 09, 2005
Posts: 136
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
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Andi K
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Joined: March 03, 2005
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Freak182 wrote: |
| Also, the Americans didn't take over the production (actually not take over but rebuild and restart) of the VW, it was the British Army. |
In fact the US Army first wanted to blast the whole factory at first, but thankfully some american-german engineers (which were employed by Porsche during his US visits) convinced them not blast it, because otherwise the small city around the factory would have been without electrical power. The factory power plant also supplied the whole city.
And that we all have now this wonderful hobby is thanked to the brits, who decided to start again the production of this strange little car.... |
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erioco
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Joined: February 05, 2004
Posts: 382
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:32 am Post subject: Type 1 during war |
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There has been a mention of the spinning rounded swastika on VWs, to which I have no answer. But on the note that the Mercedes and BMW have insignias that resemble spinning props and that they may reflect a similar source is untrue.
BMW means Beyerische Motoren Werken Bavarian Motor works: They got their start building aircraft engines, before WWI. Therefor the spinning prop insignia.
Mercedes three point star with ring around it is the combined insignias of Daimler and Benz companies, one had the star the other a laural wreath I think. Also long before WWI for each of them. BTW the Name Mercedes was the name of the most popular sports model in the very early days, named after the daughter of a Spanish racer (The family I believe was Jewish - ironic for Hitler) who specced the model for racing. The car was so successful that the company took the name and added it to company name at some point for publicity ( the official company name is I believe Daimler-Benz, the sales end is called Mercedes -Benz).
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Kubel Nick
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Joined: August 12, 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Andi K wrote: |
| Kubel Nick wrote: |
| Andi K wrote: |
| ...of the first produced KDF-cars from the Volkswagen factory in 1941. (all before produced prototypes were produced in Porsche's Garage or at Mercedes - Benz factory) |
Umm.. How can they have a finished model made before the prototypes? Those are just a lineup of 1941 cars, not prototypes since the KDF Beetles were first built in 1938 (original official prototype started 1934) |
The cars in the pictures are the first cars that were produced in the Volkwagen factory (thats whats the sign in the little picture, and the writing in the bigger picture says). The prototypes and the VW303 and VW38/39 series were not produced in the factory. The VW303 and VW38/39 were built for testing (as the VW37 series before). I would count them as prototypes as well, but thats a matter of opinion. |
ok, but still, the first official prototypes (V1) built in Porsche's home garage were started in 1934, which you said the 1941 pictured were built before the prototypes built in Porsche's garage?? How can a finished design be built before the final shapes of the prototypes were built???
And the KDF factory cornerstone ceremony was in 1938, did it take 3 years before they built the 1st car there? All my sources say that production in the KDF-Stadt started in September 1939. |
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Andi K
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Joined: March 03, 2005
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Kubel Nick wrote: |
| ok, but still, the first official prototypes (V1) built in Porsche's home garage were started in 1934, which you said the 1941 pictured were built before the prototypes built in Porsche's garage?? How can a finished design be built before the final shapes of the prototypes were built??? |
I think we have a little misunderstanding here.
Of course were the first prototypes built in 1934 in Porsches garage! And if you count the NSU Prototype it started even earlier in 1932! I never said that the finished design was before the prototypes. Maybe we have another definition of what is a prototype. For me a prototype can have the finished design or be technically equal to the later serial production. Every car that was manufactured manually and was not produced on serial production lines is a prototype in my opinion. The prototypes production for the Beetle started in 1934, but the serial production in the Wolfsburg factory started in 1941. Sorry, if that wasn't clear in my postings (english is not my first language)
| Kubel Nick wrote: |
| And the KDF factory cornerstone ceremony was in 1938, did it take 3 years before they built the 1st car there? All my sources say that production in the KDF-Stadt started in September 1939. |
It took 2 years before the first car was built-
In September 1939 the factory was almost finished, but not ready for the production of cars, because some tools were still missing. In the same month also World War II started, and the factory was seized by the german army and some minor millitary weapons and tools were produced. In 1940 the factory started to produce the Kübel. (which was more important for the war than the KDF)
The KDF production (in the factory) started in 1941 and the production was only for propaganda purposes. The cars were given to Nazi VIPs and later (with the Kübel chassis) to millitary units.
This information is in every good VW history book. A good book about the history is from Chris Barber "Birth of the Beetle", there you'll find all this information, too. |
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53 0val
Samba Professor
Joined: July 03, 2003
Posts: 11396
Location: Irvine, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Barber's book is one of the best researched books on the history of VWs. Most of the other "history" books repeat the same misinformation from previous sources that were not researched very well. Barber did the research and supported his contentions in a scholarly manner. If you have not read this book yet.........................you need to. 
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Rollo Tomasi
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Location: La Paz , Baja . Guadalajara. Mexico
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Kraftfahrer
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Joined: January 26, 2008
Posts: 165
Location: Bavaria
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Man ! that´s a great video ! A very nice piece of the Volkswagen history !
...wish I could have talked a couple of words with Mr. Porsche but I don´t have a DeLorean with the flux compensator in it... |
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