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webebuggin
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeh, i went up by 1/2 turn on mixtures @ 10, but then back to 1 turn at 8, not going by turns, just what it wants.. I will put the 55's back in and re-set LBI and report back...Also, i noticed that i had to add light springs to my throttle arms,even with the CSP linkage set up with spring, As the 3-4 side throttle shaft arm seems to lift ever so slightly when running,changing my idle speed,even with the screw backed out slightly, but when engine, off it hits the stop ........ both carbs @ 5 on the snail, before discovering this,they were at 7...
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Under heavy acceleration you should get a 12.8-13.2 on the guage and under light cruise if your vacuum advance is working correctly you want 16+ on the gauge.

I would confirm you have no vacuum at idle on the carb's vacuum port to your distributor.

It's easier with a mechanical only vacuum advance distributor in that you always look for 12.8-13.2 with the stacks out, since you don't have the vacuum advance to do a lean cruise. The vacuum advance distributors can increase the timing right off idle and during cruising, which eliminates the flat spot off idle and

A question for others would be would it be easier for him to temporarily plug his vacuum lines up to get his idle jet closer? This would make it easier to tackle the idle jet at first to get it close and then you could plug the vacuum back in to see what's happening then.

Other random things to check would be: carbs synced after warming up motor and then with the motor off after being warmed up have someone press on the gas pedal and see if the carbs open together at the same time and to full throttle. Try not to do it too much as you will be pumping gas into the motor thru the accelerator pump.
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RHough
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

webebuggin wrote:
...Also, i noticed that i had to add light springs to my throttle arms,even with the CSP linkage set up with spring, As the 3-4 side throttle shaft arm seems to lift ever so slightly when running,changing my idle speed,even with the screw backed out slightly, but when engine, off it hits the stop ........ both carbs @ 5 on the snail, before discovering this,they were at 7...


Where is the return spring on the left carb? Front or rear?

All new Webers are right side carbs AFAIK. This puts the left side return spring on the wrong end of the throttle shaft. There is a kit to install a new spring on the rear of the left side carb as it should be but the kit interferes with the CSP throttle arm adapter.

Check to make sure there is no preload on the left carb when you re-install the linkage after setting idle speed.
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VDub Rising
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VDub Rising wrote:
Hey guys, I'm getting ready to buy the proper equipment needed to tune my duel carbed 1776 and was wondering if there is a how to or quick reference guide on properly setting the advance on the SVDA dizzy from aircooled.net? I also have this style exhaust and was wondering where I would put the AFR reader or the best place to. I'm running heater boxes.


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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You want to adjust your linkage after warming up the motor, this is so the linkage will be correct while you're driving it. It sounds like when your motor gets warmed up your linkage affects your idle settings on your carbs.

Read that long post on the last page I copied up from page 4 to set the carbs correctly at idle. Then hook up the linkage and get the motor warmed up before you turn the car off and adjust the linkage while the motor is still warm to not mess with your idle set up. Then make sure you get full throttle and the carbs open at the same time, otherwise you will have lots of problems trying to tune.

The linkage set up incorrectly will mess up your idle and also cause problems with cruise.

I think once you set your idle correctly and get the linkage right it will come along for you a lot better and easier.
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally feel if you have to add carb return springs, you have a problem.

If the linkage is properly setup the only springs needed are the ones built into the carb(s). Adding additional springs WILL cause sync issues, because of the play on the throttle arms.
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Anvil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
I personally feel if you have to add carb return springs, you have a problem.

If the linkage is properly setup the only springs needed are the ones built into the carb(s). Adding additional springs WILL cause sync issues, because of the play on the throttle arms.

What if the return spring is a compression spring between where the throttle cable connects to the linkage yoke and the shroud?
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the throttle arms are being pulled up (closed) you will face this issue.

If you have some stiffness, you are best off to find out why and address it directly, instead of trying to overcome it with a spring. Stiff ball joints, throttle cable bends, over-tightened throttle shaft nuts, etc etc, all contribute to this.

Anvil wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
I personally feel if you have to add carb return springs, you have a problem.

If the linkage is properly setup the only springs needed are the ones built into the carb(s). Adding additional springs WILL cause sync issues, because of the play on the throttle arms.

What if the return spring is a compression spring between where the throttle cable connects to the linkage yoke and the shroud?

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Anvil
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
If the throttle arms are being pulled up (closed) you will face this issue.

If you have some stiffness, you are best off to find out why and address it directly, instead of trying to overcome it with a spring. Stiff ball joints, throttle cable bends, over-tightened throttle shaft nuts, etc etc, all contribute to this.
Checked all that and replaced the throttle cable. Might be the cruiser pedal, but without a spring, the idle is inconsistent. This is on a center pivot style linkage. I'll investigate further.
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cmaxcliff
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,
Went to the chassis dyno yesterday. Below are the results with A/F readings, WOT only and main circuit only. I was a little surprised at how rich the early stages are. The partial throttle A/F main circuit readings are not that rich when driving on the road. When I have tuned on a chassis dyno in the past I would now go 1 size down on the main and 1 size down on the air. It almost seems that the 135 main would be too small for the 36 venturis already regardless of the fact that Weber supplies them that way. I have the Porsche with IDF44/36s, F11(no mods),55,135,175. Your advice?
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cmaxcliff
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is strange. I suspect you have fuel coming from elsewhere too.

Drop to a 130 main.

Normally the engines work best with an air jet of 200. 175 is too small IMO. That in itself will lean it out a lot. My normal starting point is 55/140-145/200. Engines at elevation, or with high/low compression, will require different.
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cmaxcliff
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once had a new set of IDF44s that had a porous casting that leaked into only one throat. Needless to say the idle mixture screw did nothing on that one cylinder. Eventually I did notice that one butterfly plate was getting wet on top when the throttle was closed. The carbs were exchanged after Redline inspected them.
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webebuggin
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright.. I'm finally getting somewhere... 2110, FK-7, 40 x 35 Tim's heads.. 44 idf's.. 55 idle ,140 main, 200 air on F-11's... LBI 1 turn out (what it wants) no longer popping at idle thru muffler...With the main stax out, 12:2 at idle.. at light cruise, 2000 rpm 19:9, bogs if I go up further, 2500 rpm .. 20:0 ..if gentle going up to 3000 rpm @ 1/4 throttle 20:1.... 2600 rpm.. 18:0-19... At 2800 rpm, it bogs like it's out of fuel... at 3000 rpm above 1/4 throttle..13:8 but snappy/poppy, plugs are grey(I know)... This is after getting the throttle to close right on the left carb, (wasn't closing all the way)) no longer will need to ad spring Smile just for shitz and giggles, dropped main stax in, went for cruise... it stays in the 12:13-5 range, hit 14:5 a little, and if mashed to floor stays about the same @ 12;13:5.... transition is smooth, feel a tiny surge.. still not to 16-17:1 range at cruise... Timing on Mallory @ 8/28... it pulls like it never has, and the wife says i don't smell like a muffler/ Exhaust ... Nice after romping on it to be able to check plugs,etc, and everything is not screaming hot, Manifolds are hardly warm.. oil temp is slow getting up, Have to close down decklid, we are in the teens/20's here is Washington, right now... , Have 52.5's on the way..At one point my LM-1 said "too rich", at idle,lower than 850 rpm.. Have never seen that before...thought about going 52.5, reset LBI and see where it goes, I try to stay at light cruise,under 3000rpm...while testing with LM-1....
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you are on track now! You are doing it right. SLOW........
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cmaxcliff
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,
I had my weekly lunch with my motorhead friends today. One is a retired engineer that had responsibility for emissions compliance mapping for a motorcycle manufacturer. He explained the likely cause of different A/F readings between road testing and the chassis dyno. He states that the rate of acceleration would be different between the engine propelling the actual car versus turning the 900 pound drum and the actual rate of acceleration could easily cause a half point difference or more in A/F readings. In other words, road testing is the accurate method. As he reminded me, modern EFI has compensation factors based on the rate of acceleration.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Another effect that many don't know is normally when on the dyno there is no problem. Put the engine in the car and close the decklid, and depending on the year/model of car you have a serious air restriction through the vents.

This can show up as an over-rich condition on the road, but will be fine on the dyno (since the decklid is open or even off, if the engine is even in the car).

Some cars that run no decklid (race cars) have to jet the 1 and 3 cylinders differently than the 3 and 4 cylinders, since the amount of air and jetting requirements are different when there is no decklid. 2 cylinders get ram air and 2 don't (and it only happens on the road at speed, not sitting still on the rollers).

This can take forever to figure out if you haven't had someone tell you about it.
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cmaxcliff
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John,
I hope this relates to the VW world so that others may benefit and so that it is something that you have had experience with. 1957 and older Porsches have two single barrel Solex carbs like some of the VW aftermarket set-ups. I am now tuning one of these with a wideband. The twin single barrels are known to be rough runners and now I see that the A/F numbers are all over the place with wild variations when the throttle is moved. These are 40mm butterflies that Porsche sometimes fitted with 50 idles and sometimes with 45 idles, big difference! They also used about a 1/8" hole in the throttle plate. I have tried both 45s and 50s with these results. The 50s idle well at 13-14 at a reasonable number of turns out and transition well they "feel" pretty good BUT a light cruise is so rich that it pegs the meter to 9.6! Other than that light steady cruise the numbers are ok. When I change to the 45s the light cruise gets into the 12s most of the time but there are certain steady rpm where the mixture turns very lean, 21s, and starts missing. It seems to be a resonance of reversion that turns off the jet. Also the idle mixture screws need to be out over 4 turns to get an idle and even then the idle is 18-19! I have thought about blocking off the hole in the throttle plate but I thought you may have some thoughts. Do VWs with two single barrel carbs have similar issues? Thanks.
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

how about try 47.5 idles?

Understand that you probably don't know when the progression ends and when the mains pick up. If the mains are late there will be a lean hole, if the mains are early it will be super rich (since you are getting fuel from idle and main at the same time).

You have to tune WHEN the main circuit comes in, since you can't change when the progression turns off (it's set by the location of the holes).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am waiting to hear if the Solex parts guy has them. Is that something you would have? They have a 8mm hex and are around 3/4" long and are what the later 2 barrel Solexes used also. I need to disable the main circuit but I am sure that all of the changes that I outlined are on the idle circuit. All of it was at small throttle openings. The WOT A/F at high rpm is right near 12.9 but I haven't addressed the early main performance. I do think the main is sensitive and may react too aggressively to throttle changes. I don't think these will ever be great but they are correct for the car so they will stay.

Are the VW aftermarket 2 single barrel set-ups wacky also?
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