Wideband Results

[email protected] · Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:07 am Post subject:

I didn't slap you in the face, I told you to get off your ass and do your homework. Even friends do that to each other.

It's simply how you take the criticism. You can take it positive, "I guess I was being a lazy #)*&*", or take it negative "I am OFFENDED!".

Everyone makes mistakes (myself included). The feedback we get from them is how we evolve. I've taken my share of criticism here on the Samba, and when thinking about a lot of them, they were right. I learn from it. But in this instances I'm not in the wrong. Samba regulars know I don't sugar-coat anything.

Back to the point, you bring your car to the dyno, and he runs it for 1-2 hours, and you let him mess with your pride an joy, or YOU do it, and there is a very good chance you have wasted your $75-150, because you don't know what you are doing. If the dyno guy doesn't know what he's doing, you won't know that either (because you also don't know).

You are in the right place (right forum) for this information, but you are taking the wrong approach with the expectation that I'm to "serve you" with your answer. To you to not answer your question is bad, but to criticize you is even worse! If that question hadn't been answered 25 times in this thread, I would not have responded the way I did. But given the circumstances it was a monumentally stupid question.

Good luck.
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W1K1 · Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:40 am Post subject:

Stripped66 · Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:41 am Post subject:

webebuggin · Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:49 pm Post subject:

Alright.. I'm finally getting somewhere... 2110, FK-7, 40 x 35 Tim's heads.. 44 idf's.. 55 idle ,140 main, 200 air on F-11's... LBI 1 turn out (what it wants) no longer popping at idle thru muffler...With the main stax out, 12:2 at idle.. at light cruise, 2000 rpm 19:9, bogs if I go up further, 2500 rpm .. 20:0 ..if gentle going up to 3000 rpm @ 1/4 throttle 20:1.... 2600 rpm.. 18:0-19... At 2800 rpm, it bogs like it's out of fuel... at 3000 rpm above 1/4 throttle..13:8 but snappy/poppy, plugs are grey(I know)... This is after getting the throttle to close right on the left carb, (wasn't closing all the way)) no longer will need to ad spring just for shitz and giggles, dropped main stax in, went for cruise... it stays in the 12:13-5 range, hit 14:5 a little, and if mashed to floor stays about the same @ 12;13:5.... transition is smooth, feel a tiny surge.. still not to 16-17:1 range at cruise... Timing on Mallory @ 8/28... it pulls like it never has, and the wife says i don't smell like a muffler/ Exhaust ... Nice after romping on it to be able to check plugs,etc, and everything is not screaming hot, Manifolds are hardly warm.. oil temp is slow getting up, Have to close down decklid, we are in the teens/20's here is Washington, right now... , Have 52.5's on the way..At one point my LM-1 said "too rich", at idle,lower than 850 rpm.. Have never seen that before...thought about going 52.5, reset LBI and see where it goes, I try to stay at light cruise,under 3000rpm...while testing with LM-1... UPDATE................. 52'5 were to rich everywhere.....dropped idles down to 50's ,re-set LBI, set timing@ 12 BTDC. smooth acceleration, from 2000-2500 light throttle it's at 16.5 goes up to 17.4-18;5.. the less throttle, the better the numbers, but solid 16;9-17 + at 2500, spark plugs , were changed from NGK B7EA, to NGK BCP6ET's ,went from black to grey,not alot of exhaust smell, cools down quick atfer a run,and manifolds don't even get hot ! but now upon acceleration, kinda lost something, will check clutch adj. it seems like that... Update!!!! still at 12.5 at hot idle, solid 16.9-17.5,as high as 18 at 2500 rpm light cruise, full throttle goes 14.5 and does not change, back to 12.5 upon lift of pedal.. light bog type condition, like it needs more air or bigger mains, plugs on 2-4 are light tan on electrodes...

FrikRSK · Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:11 pm Post subject: 36 IDF (Italian) tuning issues

Hi all.

I am a newbie on TheSamba, although not new to aircooled VW's. I built a Porsche RSK Spider kit car some 10 years ago, and I really wish I had all the info on this site on hand back then, would have saved me lots of frustration... The car has been standing for quite some time, and I recently pulled the engine apart to do some minor improvements (full flow oil fiter, cam and some headwork). I have two 36 IDF (53 3d) Italian carbs on with crossbar linkage. The engine had always ran rich (as I only read about the Italian mods done be MHarney, Laken, Modok etc recently). I cannot get the low speed circuit right no matter what I try. What am I missing?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559740&highlight=idf+mod
http://web.archive.org/web/20080117102107/www.carburetorclinic.com/36_idf.htm
Engine Specs are:

*Stock 1585cc DP T3
*1:8.3 CR
*Eagle W100 cam with std 1:1.1 rockers)
*Counter-weighed and balanced crank/ flywheel
*Std valves, inlet and exh ports ported and polished
*40 mm exhaust system
*Ignition timing set to 30Deg total advance - about 10deg BTDC idle

Since I read about the modifications to be done to the Italian 36 IDF's, i have done them. The carb setup is:

2x Weber 36 IDF (53 3d from some alfa, can't remember which model)
30 vents
4.5 Aux vents
50 idle
F11 tubes
180 airs
120 mains
1.2 idle air bleeds
2.5 PSI fuel press

Initial carb setup done, LBI done, sync done. The engine idles super smooth, wideband reads 13.6 but the moment I come off idle, throttle just exposing the first progression hole the mixture goes RICH, high 10's to low 11s on the wideband and stays like that until the mains want to kick in. I have removed the main jet stacks as advised, and even disconnected the acc pump linkages and removed the acc pump springs to totally remove the pumps from interfering wit the readings. The confusing part is that I get coughing through the carbs every now and then with throttle stationary in the 1500-2500RPM range (which I believed was a lean condition) but the wideband says it is rich at 11-ish. I have tried different idles up to 55 and even bigger idle air bleeds up to 1,5mm, in all combinations but the readings in the low speed circuit stays in the 11 AFR range. I have tried float levels from 8mm ( like MHarney said works better on these specific carbs) ro 11.5mm that 40 IDF's uses, still no real change. WTF? What am I missing? What is the coughing all about if the wideband says its rich? I am almost at the point of considering dual 34ICT's

My question is: Will 28 vents make any difference? I do feel that the current 30's may be a little too big, I believe the car will not see >5500RPM. Does the vents have any effect on the low speed circuit? The idle mix screws are just off their seats at about 1/2 turn open. I thought well then 47 idles should be better, but now I'm not sure, as she is already coughing at me. Totally confused by the conflicting messages. I feel i should trust the wideband though. So do I go smaller on idles, or smaller on vents, or both? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

PS: Don't want to sound stupid, but all the mentioned AFR figures are with the car stationary, engine running with no load. Am I just bulls$&^ng myself trying to do this without physically driving the car? I just wanted to get in the ballpark for now, will be able to drive it in a week or so, just finishing up some paintwork Embarassed

webebuggin · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:59 am Post subject:

52'5 were to rich everywhere.....dropped idles down to 50's ,re-set LBI, set timing@ 12 BTDC. smooth acceleration, from 2000-2500 light throttle it's at 16.5 goes up to 17.4-18;5.. the less throttle, the better the numbers, but solid 16;9-17 + at 2500, spark plugs , were changed from NGK B7EA, to NGK BCP6ET's ,went from black to grey,not alot of exhaust smell, cools down quick atfer a run,and manifolds don't even get hot ! but now upon acceleration, kinda lost something, will check clutch adj. it seems like that... Update!!!! still at 12.5 at hot idle, solid 16.9-17.5,as high as 18 at 2500 rpm light cruise, full throttle goes 14.5 and does not change, back to 12.5 upon lift of pedal.. light bog type condition, like it needs more air or bigger mains, plugs on 2-4 are light tan on electrodes...

Casting Timmy · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:14 am Post subject:

I could be wrong,but I thought at full throttle you wanted it a bit richer than 14.5.....shouldn't it be between 12.8 and 13.2?

Hopefully I am wrong, but it sounds like you are concentrating too much on the lean cruise and not getting it right on the wide open throttle pull. Are you trying to tune only for gas mileage? If you are tuning for power, just watch the wide open throttle pull and get it between 12.8 and 13.2.

A hot idle of 12.5 sounds weird, do you set LBI after the motor is fully warmed up?

So this is where you are at:
2110 with a FK7 and 40x35 Steve Tims heads with Dual 44 IDF's
50 idle
140 main ?
200 Air ?
F11's ?
36 Vents?
Cruise 16.5-18.5 and 16.9-17 at 2500+rpm
Wide open throttle pull is 14.5

[email protected] · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:11 am Post subject:

I don't know what distributor he has, but a "lean cruise tune" should not be attempted with a non-vac distributor. Just stick for 12.8-13.3:1 window for all RPM and throttle ranges, except for idle. Tune idle by LBI, NOT the gauge.
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webebuggin · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:17 am Post subject:

John, it's a Mallory Unilite w/ vac. Advance..tapped into both carbs.. So shoot for 12-13 all across the board? I set LBI by ear. The 12.5 is just hat the LM1 1 says....

[email protected] · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:36 am Post subject:

no, if you have vac advance you can do 15-17:1 on the progression circuit, and 12.8-13.3 on the mains. Although there is nothing wrong with 12.8-13.3 all the time either, but that's leaving MPG on the table.
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It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

"Like" our Facebook page at
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webebuggin · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:05 am Post subject:

Well, I'm at 12.5 at idle, 16-18 at light cruise, so what Chang e next to get the 12-13at WOT??? Currently 50 idle/ 140 main/200 air corr./ f-11 e-tubes

[email protected] · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:09 am Post subject:

I'd try a 150 main next to get out of the death zone at WOT.
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It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

"Like" our Facebook page at
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webebuggin · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:57 pm Post subject:

We"ll do. So where I'm at on the lean cruise, is good?? Or are there any other changes, I should make?? Will do 150's, reset LBI, drive and report back.. This forum is a wealth of info, for anyone willing to take the time, give ALL the info and do the work!!!! Worth it in my book!!!

[email protected] · Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:02 pm Post subject:

Try turning your idle mix screws in another 3/4 turn each.
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It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net

webebuggin · Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:07 pm Post subject:

Reset LBI: idle mix screws turned in until miss, 1/4 turn at a time, until I could hear it smooth out, real touchy, probably 1/2-3/4 turned in now at idle.. # 3 seems to have no effect, will investigate further,no change when turned all the way in, but no change in idle or sound... I have 18:3/20 on gauge ,instead of 12:5/13 at idle .., no popping in exhaust, starts better, first turn of key, checked timingv ,still at 12... Still at 16:9 at light cruise, seems to want to die,when pedal lifted,idle drops fast, tap pedal it corrects, idles at 850-900 ... plug electrodes were dark tan/black, Now center is white,and electrodes are gray.. just seeing what they look like for shnitz and grins..

[email protected] · Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:48 pm Post subject:

If you are getting 18-20:1 it means a misfire in one cylinder, likely caused by #3 (no response).

Casting Timmy

Your lean cough at 1500-2000 can be from misadjusted linkage. After you warm up the motor to operating temp turn it off and have someone else work the gas pedal for you and watch to make sure they open the same and get to full throttle the same.

I would try the 47's, remember the idle jets feed the idle screw and progressive circuit. So the idle screws will have to be turned out to get the same LBI at idle, but the progressive circuit should go up.

Everything sounds in the ball park.

FrikRSK

[quote="Casting Timmy"]Your lean cough at 1500-2000 can be from misadjusted linkage. After you warm up the motor to operating temp turn it off and have someone else work the gas pedal for you and watch to make sure they open the same and get to full throttle the same.

I would try the 47's, remember the idle jets feed the idle screw and progressive circuit. So the idle screws will have to be turned out to get the same LBI at idle, but the progressive circuit should go up.

Everything sounds in the ball park.

Thank you Casting Timmy I will definitely recheck the linkage setup. Did take time to adjust it, but it is possible that it's not perfect any more after all the idle air bleed replacements I've tried. Will get a set of 47 idles today, found a place in my country who stocks some ADF parts. Will update the results soon d'oh!

schell '59 · Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:45 am Post subject:

...just wanted to say I have not posted on here in years...but after getting back into my hot rod (vw) in the last few months...I had to brush up on my vw knowledge...setting up the ol girls when they are stock is pretty much a lock...but when you factor a 2 litler,webers etc etc...I couldn't remember a thing!!

that said....its guys that take people seriously and actually enjoy the hobby and/or have real knowledge to share...thanks much guys for your time and patience as these thing always vary. as a biz owner,its hard to take the time out and help as much a I would like...but this is body work and restoration that I am comfortable with...not motor dial in etc...so its refreshing to see guys taking the time....great thread!

thanks again,
T
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