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amattos5519 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2007 Posts: 41
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: HHO gas as a fuel supplement |
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so i stumbled onto a kinda cool thing last week, with promise of better fuel economy, cool running temps, cleaner emissions, and more power. i have since made one of these gadgets at home and tried it on my toyota 4runner and have noticed a little improvement. hho gas is the result of electrolized water, which then lets out the gas also known as browns gas, the gas is then sucked out through the the vacuum line on your engine into the intake. Does anybody have an opinion or has tried this? anything to save gas i guess |
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Yellow Rabbit Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2005 Posts: 1145
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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It takes energy to separate Hydrogen from water. There is no net gain. |
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82WestyMan Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2006 Posts: 1098 Location: Western OR
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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i'm with 'da wabbit...
basic physics _________________ "The floggings will continue until morale improves"
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell" - Harry S. Truman
82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine |
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tencentlife Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006 Posts: 10067 Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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You guys should read up on this before rendering flat judgement. It's true that over-unity is impossible according to the Second Law, but it's not merely the heat of hydrogen burn added to combustion that this is about.
The idea is that small amounts of free H (the O is superfluous, and some of the tinkerers messing with this idea separate the O and vent it. There's more than enough O2 available as it is, so adding a bit more makes no difference to the burn) somehow catalyse the combustion of hydrocarbons, creating a hotter and more thorough burn of the gasoline. Since ICE's run on heat, and heat alone, more heat equals more potential power from a charge. The idea is that if there can be more heat released from a given charge, then the same heat can be released by a leaner charge, or one using less fuel per unit. So if it's true, the engine can be adjusted to run leaner while making the same power. The amounts of water hydrolised in this process are miniscule, presenting only a small additional load on the alternator.
I don't know if it works or not. I've seen accounts all over the map. Some proponents of the process naturally claim outrageous gains in mpg. Others are more measured and report smaller but nonetheless meaningful gains. I've also seen reports of independent testers with no skin in the game also getting useful increases in mpg. This being the internet, you have to treat most of what you read with reasonable skepticism, but there seems to be evidence to suggest that this is worthy of further investigation. It doesn't produce any benefit by just adding the Brown's gas to an existing unmodified engine, as the extra heat is unusable by itself unless the engine cycle is modified to take advantage of it. But by altering the FI or carbs to run leaner, if the addition of the extra free H does make for hotter combustion temps from what would otherwise be a cooler-burning charge, then there could be actual gains in efficiency, or shaft torque delivered from a given unit of fuel.
So, please don't tag me a proponent. I'm simply curious about this idea because there seems like there might be something there. But this isn't being presented as some miraculous "free energy" gizmo, capitalising on the publics' gee-whiz fascination with all things hydrogen, as if it is naturally a more powerful fuel than the hydrocarbons we're addicted to (it isn't, it's just cleaner in the actual burn). But don't discard the idea out of hand until you understand what the OP is actually asking about. _________________ Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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Mathew Zelezen Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2004 Posts: 547 Location: Graeagle, CA
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with Tencentlife.
I did alot of research on this a couple weeks ago and I was tinkering with my own "Hydrogen Booster" with different arrangements of stainless steel in canisters (lots of videos on Youtube about different setups) but couldn't come up with a way to create enough hydrogen/oxygen to pump into the intake to make any real MPG gain.
Interesting idea but I think it still needs a little work. I think MythBusters did a piece on this too.
That being said, I went to gas station today to fill the beast with 87 octane and it was $4.20 a gallon!!! _________________ 87 Syncro Tintop
~Rocky J Motor
~Steedle Trans
Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: It might have been. |
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amattos5519 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2007 Posts: 41
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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i was talking to a chemist friend and she said the chemistry works and that she was going to look into the weights and measurements on it, any gains would be a plus, also if you were to run six of these mason jar sized cans, the amount of gas created was quite impressive. but im not the scientist just a tinker |
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inspector58 Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2008 Posts: 53 Location: Amarillo, Texas
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: |
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. . _________________ Loud pipes save lives!
Last edited by inspector58 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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airkooledchris Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005 Posts: 2700
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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inspector58 wrote: |
I've had one on my vehicle for 2 years now, more power with less pedal, better fuel mileage! |
which setup are you using?
and where's the pics?
=)
im currently getting about 13mpg in the city and 17 on the highway (its really hilly around here) - so any gains would be nice. I did have all the EGR stuff in place, but barely got any additional MPG out of it so it's gone for now and I have a much less restrictive exhaust installed.
and I run somewhat larger than usual tires, so theres always the chance my MPG calculation is wrong because my listed number of miles travelled may be off. |
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inspector58 Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2008 Posts: 53 Location: Amarillo, Texas
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: My 2 year old HHO setup |
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. . _________________ Loud pipes save lives!
Last edited by inspector58 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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amattos5519 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2007 Posts: 41
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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is there a way to lean out the mixture on a FI 2.0? |
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amattos5519 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2007 Posts: 41
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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inspector58 what is your gain in your mpg? |
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inspector58 Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2008 Posts: 53 Location: Amarillo, Texas
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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. . _________________ Loud pipes save lives!
Last edited by inspector58 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CoolAirVw Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2007 Posts: 29 Location: kc mo
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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I've read up on these hydrogen generators and I can't believe that they can save you MPG. Takes energy to run the alternator to power the generator and each time you change from on type of energy to another you loose energy in waste (heat friction ect).
Process of making Hydrogen.
Gas (chemical engergy) I've heard gas engines are only 20 percent efficient
combustion (heat energy) (lots of waste here, lets put a radiator on this thing to release massive amounts of our heat energy into the atmosphere, not to mention the huge amounts going out the tailpipe, and heating the Catalytic Converter up)
Spinning engine (mechanical energy) (friction losses, and more heat, plus alternator belt for more friction loss and heat)
Alternator (Electrical energy) sends power to hydrogen generator
Hydrogen generator (converts electrical energy to chemical energy)
Hydrogen burned in cylinder (heat energy) probably 80 percent of your miniscule quantity of hydrogen is wasted in heat loss out the radiator and tailpipe.
Very wasteful process.
Now if you could generate the hydrogen just with some free electrical source like Regen Braking, (or solar, wind, WVO genset ect) then I might believe.
Note: I'm from missouri. We don't believe nothing here. It's called the "Show me" state. |
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inspector58 Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2008 Posts: 53 Location: Amarillo, Texas
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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. . _________________ Loud pipes save lives!
Last edited by inspector58 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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amattos5519 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2007 Posts: 41
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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i guess pictures dont work but how about you try one it costs about 10 dollars to make one, and the alternator is always working so why not us that little bit of unused or WASTED electricity and put it to a 10 amp hydrogen system. its all real ive got one in my 1984 toyota pickup and we just put one in a 1992 4runner and we might put one in my van.dont believe me im from california |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, the drag that the alternator places on the engine is directly proportional to the electricity being used by the vehicle. In other words it is not creating energy constantly that is being "wasted". When you turn on lots of electrical accessories you will see a noticeable drop in fuel economy. That being said, as Tencent mentioned, if the presence of hydrogen gas aids in a more complete combustion then it is quite feasible that the more complete combustion would more than offset the energy cost of the inefficiency of initially producing the hydrogen.
Andrew |
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amattos5519 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2007 Posts: 41
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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im noticing more people looking at this thread. i think thats good |
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tencentlife Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006 Posts: 10067 Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I don't believe the Show-me fellow bothered to read the thread very closely, because all that was made clear for those who do. Brilliant people get hung up on the over-unity question and think they've got it all figgered out. Read the whole thread here, friend: no one is proposing an over-unity device.
Andrew is absolutely right, the torque load on the alternator varies with the amperage load in the car. Engine systems present a minimum baseload, but accessories add to the load and take additional shaft horsepower. So making the Brown's gas isn't free, but if it allows for more efficient combustion, there may be a net benefit. And once again, I'm not advocating for or against this. I'm not from Missouri, but I'm a Show-me kind of guy too. But I can't dismiss this out of hand, and I want to see more.
By the way, gasoline engines typically deliver power equivalent to 30-35% of the embodied caloric energy in the fuel. Diesels are a few points higher, but as far as I know they don't exceed 40%. It still sucks, but it's a bit better that 20%.
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If you install a setup like this on a computer controlled fuel injected vehicle, I would think the computer would see a rich condition and lean it out by itself.
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From what I've read, the extra oxygen fed into the intake as a portion of the Brown's gas is not really utilised by the engine, because there's more than enough O2 as it is in free air, so what happens is it passes thru and raises the O2 content in the exhaust stream. That makes the O2 sensor put out a lowered voltage, which the ECU sees as a lean condition, so it responds by enriching mixture. So to get the benefits of the Brown's gas with a lambda injection system, if it does in fact work, you need to trick the ECU into seeing a higher voltage from the O2 sensor. There are some simple circuits that can be interposed between the sensor and ECU that step up the input voltage, so the ECU will run leaner. But a carbureted engine would see the benefits directly because there is no feedback. _________________ Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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inspector58 Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2008 Posts: 53 Location: Amarillo, Texas
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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. . _________________ Loud pipes save lives!
Last edited by inspector58 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tencentlife Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006 Posts: 10067 Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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Well that's just what I've read, no experience of my own to confirm anything. Get an LM1 on there and see what's really going on. _________________ Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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