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HHO gas as a fuel supplement
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Spezialist
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4276846.html?series=19


Quote:
I had another long talk yesterday with Steve Rumore, my off-road buddy turned HHO donater. He's experimenting with several vehicles, and actually getting some consistent results—fuel-economy improvements to the tune of 10 to 12 percent on diesel trucks pulling trailers. He's tinkering with some of the same things Giroux is suggesting. We're looking into ways to refine both his and my experimental methods. But I'm convinced there's a lot of placebo effect. I also think that these mods may be increasing fuel economy independently of the HHO injection. So stay tuned, because we're still testing. Once we get some more data onboard, we'll be dyno testing.


Sometimes I hate being right, not this time though. Twisted Evil





on july 12, 2008 Spezialist wrote:
GeorgeL wrote:
johnnypan wrote:
HHO generators have been installed on heavy duty diesel trucks for years now...increased economy and decreased emissions have been reported...


As soon as they are reported in peer-reviewed journal articles I'll give the reports some credence. Until then, it's snake oil.



http://www.umpquaenergy.com/

the power-stroke for diesel is radically different than a gas engine, thereby making this a win win situation, that said it is a proven technology that works in diesels, no shit.



So closing this argument once and for all, this process taps into the wasted energy from combustion engines "diesel in particular", it is not a perpetual motion machine as some weak minds claim, but a very viable source of energy the wasted aspect of said engines
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Last edited by Spezialist on Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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clearsurf2001
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spezialist wrote:
I had another long talk yesterday with Steve Rumore, my off-road buddy turned HHO donater. He's experimenting with several vehicles, and actually getting some consistent results—fuel-economy improvements to the tune of 10 to 12 percent on diesel trucks pulling trailers. He's tinkering with some of the same things Giroux is suggesting. We're looking into ways to refine both his and my experimental methods. But I'm convinced there's a lot of placebo effect. I also think that these mods may be increasing fuel economy independently of the HHO injection. So stay tuned, because we're still testing. Once we get some more data onboard, we'll be dyno testing.


Sometimes I hate being right, not this time though.


Proof positive all right - way to go!
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GeorgeL
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Icy wrote:
None of that Joe-Schmo Youtube BS. Here's a company in Oklahoma City that actually makes a Hydrogen Converter for a vehicle. It costs $1,000, which is more realistic than the "$20 in parts from Radio Shack".

http://www.hydrodyno.com/index.php


So? There are no pictures of the device on that site, only a badly-photoshopped "box" with a picture of a truck on the front. It may well be $20 in parts from Radio Shack with a $1000 price tag attached.

The other commercial enterprise cited in this thread actually had their $$$ device pictured. It was made of materials you can get at RS and BORG.

Lots of money to be made, if you are quick on your feet and disappear before your customers realize that the device is worthless.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeorgeL wrote:
Icy wrote:
None of that Joe-Schmo Youtube BS. Here's a company in Oklahoma City that actually makes a Hydrogen Converter for a vehicle. It costs $1,000, which is more realistic than the "$20 in parts from Radio Shack".

http://www.hydrodyno.com/index.php


So? There are no pictures of the device on that site, only a badly-photoshopped "box" with a picture of a truck on the front. It may well be $20 in parts from Radio Shack with a $1000 price tag attached.

The other commercial enterprise cited in this thread actually had their $$$ device pictured. It was made of materials you can get at RS and BORG.

Lots of money to be made, if you are quick on your feet and disappear before your customers realize that the device is worthless.


I agree. I just found it interesting that it was featured in the local newpaper (online edition), of all places. The business claims to have 10 employees and was founded in 2006. I looked up the address on Google Maps and am familiar with the location.
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breinicke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject: Yahoo Group & Personal Testimony Reply with quote

I would encourage those who are interested in this thread to jump over to Yahoo and join the Hydroxy Group. I've been a member there for months, and successfully installed a "Smacks Booster" in my brothers 1985 S10 truck. (carb based engine). He did see about a 9mpg average gain in his S10.
Here is the link to the smacks website. the plans are completely free for download so you can make your own.
http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/
A smacks generates between 1.3 and 1.7 liters per minute

I have another Smacks built and next spring (once my 73 Super Beetle is up to par), I plan on installing it.

The mason jar based systems are a complete scam. DO NOT waste your money.

The sad thing about all this is, often there are 2 extreme opinions about this science.
1. Close minded (I don't mean that in an insulting way) "It breaks the laws of physics, it can't work, so I will not even be open to it"
or
2. Conspiracy Theorist "the Government had (enter name here) murdered because they were on the verge of making a breakthrough in this science. This is all a cover up!"

I believe there is a middle ground. Can a "hydrogen on demand" system ever completely replace gasoline? no. You need some kind of energy to get the ball rolling, and to do the bulk of the work. But, can it be used to supplement gasoline on a reasonable basis.

My concern in using it with an AC beetle is, hydrogen burns a lot hotter (and faster) than gasoline. I'm concerned that it will overheat the engine.

Oh, and ps, here is a link to a pdf file. It's a study that NASA did on combining hydrogen with gasoline in a combustion engine.
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/ELoZSTlavlDcCR2OlWGWS...016170.pdf
If you want photo documentation and further personal testimony, go to the Hydroxy group. There are hundreds of members there who have their own experiences and stories, with no personal financial gain in saying what they are saying.
Keep in mind that many of them are doing installs in more modern cars, where the excess oxygen throws off the sensors in their cars, adding another level of complexity. I would LOVE to have more people trying this out in older cars to throw in their experiences.
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Spezialist
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
excess oxygen throws off the sensors in their cars


where is the excess o2 coming from??

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19770016170_1977016170.pdf

heres a link that works, I will have to read it later.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: excess o2 Reply with quote

when you split H2O, you get 1 H and 2 O's. this causes excessive oxygen to pass through the exhaust system, where modern computers would tell the engine to run a richer mix, countering the benefits.
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Spezialist
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: excess o2 Reply with quote

breinicke wrote:
when you split H2O, you get 1 H and 2 O's. this causes excessive oxygen to pass through the exhaust system, where modern computers would tell the engine to run a richer mix, countering the benefits.


so o2 passes through a combustion chamber going through a combustion process, unchanged?

typical vehicle exhaust components: Carbon Monoxide (CO), Carbon Dioxide (CO2), Hydrocarbon (HC) and Nitrous Oxide (NOX).

so with the addition of HHO, your getting o2??? Think
or is water vapour being converted back to steam the second it hits the catylitic converter Think
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:31 pm    Post subject: a small portion Reply with quote

I do not pretend to know the percentages of gasses that make up emissions, but I do know that O2 has it's place among them. It's why cars have O2 sensors to calculate how lean or rich a mixture is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor
When you split water and produce 02, it's true, I'm sure a portion of that is converted along with the other air, but it does increase the quantity.
this would tell a modern car computer that the mixture needs to ritchen.
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Spezialist
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: a small portion Reply with quote

breinicke wrote:
I do not pretend to know the percentages of gasses that make up emissions, but I do know that O2 has it's place among them. It's why cars have O2 sensors to calculate how lean or rich a mixture is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor
When you split water and produce 02, it's true, I'm sure a portion of that is converted along with the other air, but it does increase the quantity.
this would tell a modern car computer that the mixture needs to ritchen.


WOW, that page is enlightening on the subject.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I took chemistry in high school, I was taught that H2O was 2 hydrogen molecules, and 1 oxygen molecule.
Therefore, when you split it, you get 2 hydrogen molecule, and 1 (one) oxygen molecule.
So where does the extra oxygen molecule come from.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ Wolfe wrote:
When I took chemistry in high school, I was taught that H2O was 2 hydrogen molecules, and 1 oxygen molecule.
Therefore, when you split it, you get 2 hydrogen molecule, and 1 (one) oxygen molecule.
So where does the extra oxygen molecule come from.
Question Question


Oxygen is diatomic. Meaning that a single oxygen atom can not be free on its own. It is always O2. Meaning that there are 2 oxygen atoms bound together, forming 1 molecule. Hydrogen and Nitrogen are also diatomic FWIW.
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Spezialist
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

busfreak_71 wrote:
Russ Wolfe wrote:
When I took chemistry in high school, I was taught that H2O was 2 hydrogen molecules, and 1 oxygen molecule.
Therefore, when you split it, you get 2 hydrogen molecule, and 1 (one) oxygen molecule.
So where does the extra oxygen molecule come from.
Question Question


Oxygen is diatomic. Meaning that a single oxygen atom can not be free on its own. It is always O2. Meaning that there are 2 oxygen atoms bound together, forming 1 molecule. Hydrogen and Nitrogen are also diatomic FWIW.


the oxygen atom in h2o is "not on its own", its bound with h2 correct?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spezialist wrote:
busfreak_71 wrote:
Russ Wolfe wrote:
When I took chemistry in high school, I was taught that H2O was 2 hydrogen molecules, and 1 oxygen molecule.
Therefore, when you split it, you get 2 hydrogen molecule, and 1 (one) oxygen molecule.
So where does the extra oxygen molecule come from.
Question Question


Oxygen is diatomic. Meaning that a single oxygen atom can not be free on its own. It is always O2. Meaning that there are 2 oxygen atoms bound together, forming 1 molecule. Hydrogen and Nitrogen are also diatomic FWIW.


the oxygen atom in h2o is "not on its own", its bound with h2 correct?


Yes it is bound to H2. So it is not on its own. And what I mean by 'alone' is that it is not bound to any other atom(s).

I might also add that you must split 2 H20 atoms to have it all balance out. ---> 2 - H2 molecules & 1 - O2 molecule.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

busfreak_71 wrote:
Spezialist wrote:
busfreak_71 wrote:
Russ Wolfe wrote:
When I took chemistry in high school, I was taught that H2O was 2 hydrogen molecules, and 1 oxygen molecule.
Therefore, when you split it, you get 2 hydrogen molecule, and 1 (one) oxygen molecule.
So where does the extra oxygen molecule come from.
Question Question


Oxygen is diatomic. Meaning that a single oxygen atom can not be free on its own. It is always O2. Meaning that there are 2 oxygen atoms bound together, forming 1 molecule. Hydrogen and Nitrogen are also diatomic FWIW.


the oxygen atom in h2o is "not on its own", its bound with h2 correct?


Yes it is bound to H2. So it is not on its own. And what I mean by 'alone' is that it is not bound to any other atom(s).


I understand now, when I read that first post, it sounded like you were saying h2o was actually h2o2, made my brain hurt a bit Wink

your edit,,flash,,
Quote:
I might also add that you must split 2 H20 atoms to have it all balance out. ---> 2 - H2 molecules & 1 - O2 molecule.



kinda like square dancing if you think about it
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spezialist wrote:
busfreak_71 wrote:
Spezialist wrote:
busfreak_71 wrote:
Russ Wolfe wrote:
When I took chemistry in high school, I was taught that H2O was 2 hydrogen molecules, and 1 oxygen molecule.
Therefore, when you split it, you get 2 hydrogen molecule, and 1 (one) oxygen molecule.
So where does the extra oxygen molecule come from.
Question Question


Oxygen is diatomic. Meaning that a single oxygen atom can not be free on its own. It is always O2. Meaning that there are 2 oxygen atoms bound together, forming 1 molecule. Hydrogen and Nitrogen are also diatomic FWIW.


the oxygen atom in h2o is "not on its own", its bound with h2 correct?


Yes it is bound to H2. So it is not on its own. And what I mean by 'alone' is that it is not bound to any other atom(s).


I understand now, when I read that first post, it sounded like you were saying h2o was actually h2o2, made my brain hurt a bit Wink

your edit,,flash,,
Quote:
I might also add that you must split 2 H20 atoms to have it all balance out. ---> 2 - H2 molecules & 1 - O2 molecule.



kinda like square dancing if you think about it


I'm quick on the edit button. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, what happens when you split NH3 to get the hydrogen??
We do it at work, to get a production cover gas.
I know it takes 1700F and a nickel catylist.
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GeorgeL
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:34 am    Post subject: Re: Yahoo Group & Personal Testimony Reply with quote

breinicke wrote:

My concern in using it with an AC beetle is, hydrogen burns a lot hotter (and faster) than gasoline. I'm concerned that it will overheat the engine.


Actually, no. The volumetric heat value of atmospheric pressure hydrogen is far less than that of methane or propane and much less than that of gasoline vapor. The reason is that the other gases have more hydrogen and carbon atoms composing their molecules, so you can squeeze more reactive atoms into the same volume of gas and thus into your cylinder.

A common science teacher's demo is to make soap bubbles with natural gas (methane) or hydrogen. We wet our arm, gather a big glob of bubbles, and ignite them. This makes an impressive fireball, but doesn't hurt one's arm because the water is sufficient to absorb the heat of combustion. Every once in a while a teacher will try this with propane. They never do this a second time because the heat value of propane is easily enough to evaporate the water and burn the teacher's arm!

In any case, the amount of hydrogen and oxygen produced by these generators is tiny compared to the flow of air into the engine, far too small to show a measurable effect on combustion heat.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This guy was running his bus with his homemade unit, the one on the grass was for demo purposes. He caught the attention of many... My pal Bob was intrigued enough to, at least say he was going to, try it.

I was interested until my beer got emptied and I went back to the cooler for another Wink
No really... listening to the guy explain it all was cool. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kind of reminds me of people working with these:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Except the HHO science isn't quite as good and the end product isn't nearly as entertaining...
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