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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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 Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
From what I've read, the extra oxygen fed into the intake as a portion of the Brown's gas is not really utilised by the engine, because there's more than enough O2 as it is in free air, so what happens is it passes thru and raises the O2 content in the exhaust stream. That makes the O2 sensor put out a lowered voltage, which the ECU sees as a lean condition, so it responds by enriching mixture. So to get the benefits of the Brown's gas with a lambda injection system, if it does in fact work, you need to trick the ECU into seeing a higher voltage from the O2 sensor. There are some simple circuits that can be interposed between the sensor and ECU that step up the input voltage, so the ECU will run leaner. But a carbureted engine would see the benefits directly because there is no feedback. |
I don't see where you would end up with any extra O2 in the exhaust, if anything it would be less. The hydrogen has to combine with something so it should use up the exact amount of added O2. If the engine were actually burning cleaner then some of the CO in the exhaust should be converted to CO2 using up more oxygen and dropping the O2 level in the exhaust and giving you a little extra power. This should cause the lambia sensor to read a rich mixture and the computer to lean things out a little.
2(CO) + O2 = 2(CO2)
I suspect that much of the gains that people claim to experience by using this system may be seen because their engines aren't running very well to start with. If you are getting a nice clean burn, then most of any change is apt to be small. It only makes sense that if you have a Vanagon that is getting only 15 mpg then there is a lot more room for improvement than if you are getting 22-24. |
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toddyvol
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Joined: September 25, 2004
Posts: 433
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Warning to anyone thinking of trying HHO generators. Be sure to put an inline flash arrestor on your hose to keep from flashing back through the line. The Brown's Gas is extremely explosive in even the smallest amounts. I've seen a cell made from stainless steel light switch covers that was very effective. It generated enough to power the car alone, no gasoline at all. The key is getting them(+&-) as close as possible without touching. The one I saw used electrical tape as spacers. That doesn't seem safe submerged but it worked.
Just my 2 cents worth.
FWIW, you can also make a cutting torch with this same principle.
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inspector58
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Joined: March 11, 2008
Posts: 53
Location: Amarillo, Texas
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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nealcapener
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Joined: November 12, 2005
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Is it April 1 st again???
If that would work and if these "generators" would actually improve gas milage, every car manufacturer would install them in their vehicles!
Neal |
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inspector58
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Posts: 53
Location: Amarillo, Texas
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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amattos5519
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Joined: March 04, 2007
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| from what ive researched one of the first internal combustion engines ran off of this gas. 5/31/2008 |
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nealcapener
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Joined: November 12, 2005
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Sure, you can run an internal combustion engines on many gases. Propane would be my first choice 
Automakers would not miss the opportunity to equip their cars with a "fuel saving" device they could produce for a couple bucks.
Neal |
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amattos5519
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Joined: March 04, 2007
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| yes this might sound paranoid, but what happens to big industry when private citizens make their own fuel supplement and not have depend as much on them for a commodity? |
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JBange
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Joined: April 20, 2008
Posts: 37
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| inspector58 wrote: |
On my vehicle, I realized quickly after I installed this that I didn't need to press the gas pedal near as far to get the same speed and power. |
Trouble is, this isn't a double-blind experiment. Is it really producing more power at the same throttle position? Is the difference between HHO supplemented and non-HHO supplemented running really enough for you to notice a difference in pedal travel? Or are you simply just not pressing the accelerator down as far, under the wishful thinking that it's producing some marginally greater degree of power? That alone will increase your gas mileage, HHO or not. Now, if someone else was randomly turning your HHO generator on or off after each fillup, then recording the results without telling you, then you wouldn't be able to modulate your driving style (even subconsciously) to produce the result you wish to see. Short of that, attribution of significant increases to the HHO are generally fantasy. But hey, if having an electrolytic cell under your hood lightens your foot on the pedal and saves gas, then it works, even if it's not for the reason you think.
Granted, there is the possibility that the addition of HHO is improving combustion enough to increase MPG, but if so, then your engine is not running properly to begin with.
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'90 Vanagon non-GL
'90 Vanagon GL |
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tencentlife
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10075
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| nealcapener wrote: |
Is it April 1 st again???
If that would work and if these "generators" would actually improve gas milage, every car manufacturer would install them in their vehicles!
Neal |
Neal's argument is a classic one, that if there were anything beneficial and effective it would already have been discovered and implemented by industry, therefore something that seems beneficial and effective cannot be so because industry doesn't already employ it. This presumes both omniscience and beneficence on the part of industry. It has a sort of perverse reverse corollary many of us have seen for years in the conspiracy theories that presume industry is so malicious that they have bought up patent rights to all kinds of beneficial technologies to keep them from the market to protect short-term profits, or to be able to monopolise those same technologies when they see fit to bring them to market. Remember the 200mpg carburetor?
Neither of these types of arguments addresses the viability of any of the technologies in question; they simply assume that since some entities have a great deal of power already, then they must have super-powers and super-knowledge unavailable to the ordinary person. They also assume that any knowledge those entities do have would naturally be put to best use, something that is ironically at odds with the paranoiac outlook many people who indulge these fallacies often have toward those same entities (I'm not speaking of you here, Neal. You made the first type of argument, but that doesn't mean you subscribe to the second).
In any case, they are very weak arguments. I don't believe industry is particularly malicious, nor do I think it acts out of benevolence. It normally acts out of what it believes will be most profitable in the markets as it sees them, has limited knlowledge, and due to limited resources, invests more in properties and technologies it already owns than it does in finding new ones that might work better, even ones that would actually be more profitable. Because of this, industry is blind-sided again and again by new ideas that aren't generated in-house.
In this particular instance, there is an assumption that automakers would be aware of any technology that achieved better fuel efficiency, and being aware of it would offer it to the market, especially if they were able to prove that the technology was cheap and effective. Well, first of all, until the last few months, fuel efficiency hasn't been a feature highly touted by automakers since the late '70's. Secondly, how do you know they didn't study it, find that it works, but reject it because it requires the driver to replenish the water the system uses along with the vehicle's main fuel? To reject something on that basis alone, slight inconvenience, in a market where fuel efficiency has not been a highly-valued feature until very recently, would be standard operating procedure for every mainstream automaker. Companies are also constrained by environmental controls and regulations that the common vehicle owner isn't in most jurisdictions. Those regulations often pertain to specifically admissible technologies, and exclude by implication any others. Those are only a few of myriad reasons why major automakers might not offer such a feature to the market.
So, you may differ, but if you ask me, its not a very convincing argument. I'll state once again that I'm not a believer nor an advocate of this concept, but I want to learn more about it because from the evidence and accounts I've seen, it seems like it might have promise. There are a lot of mileage fanatics studying this and many other things that claim to and that actually do increase vehicle eficiency. Some of these people are really very scientific in their testing and studies, anal-retentively so, and the ones who are passionate about it have more than accounted for or cancelled out all the factors JBange cites.
Whether I adopt or reject the idea will have to do only with whether I see sufficient proofs, or not, of its functionality. Those proofs will in all likelihood come from my own experimentation. I'm only interested in it's technical merits or lack of them. I can't waste my time excluding things from my circle of interest merely because they don't pass corporate muster, or because I think I'm just too smart to be taken in by that. The major corporations are not peopled by our most brilliant citizens, and it wouldn't be the first time corporate industry missed out on something sensible, cheap and useful. Many of the greatest innovations that we take for granted today, and some that form the foundations of our technological society, were generated by backyard tinkerers who had great passion for an unusual idea, and pursued it against all naysayers and while business turned a blind eye. And many more great ideas never reached the public at all, because an idea being great doesn't mean it will ever be sold. The modern industrial world is already knee-deep in better mousetraps.
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Very well said, Tencent. I actually read that in the early 1800's there was a fellow who resigned quite early from his career with the U.S. Patent Office. The reason he cited for departing was that he had been actively studying the patents and was convinced that the patent office would be unnecessary very soon due to the obvious fact that everything that could possibly be invented and patented had already been patented. 
Andrew |
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wcdennis
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Joined: July 20, 2004
Posts: 954
Location: Winston-Salem NC
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| This invention falls in the same category as the $30 superchargers you can buy on eBay (a little fan in a tube that connects to your intake). Most of the folks selling these gas generators are making dramatic claims--40-50 percent improvement in milage. Don't you think that if any on theses systems delivered anything close to that savings, everyone would have one in their car? If it only delivers an extra 5 mpg that could easily be attributed to a change in driving style. These scam artists are cashing in on the pain of high fuel prices and they do it with some plausible sounding mumbo jumbo. They tested it on Mythbusters and found no improvement. |
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?Waldo?
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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If I'm not mistaken, there's a fellow in this thread who made his own unit and posted pictures along with a claim of improved mileage and power and yet I'm pretty sure he isn't selling the units or attempting to profit any from the info. So far there has not been a single individual to post to this thread saying that they tried it and it didn't work. All of the arguments against have been based on the "It can't be true because..." followed by an argument of either 'conservation of energy' or 'if it were true everyone would be doing it', neither of which "hold water". I would also say that it doesn't fall into the category of the electric superchargers due to the fact that the electric superchargers do not flow enough CFM to create boost on even a small engine.
I have not personally tried the HHO generator and so cannot comment from first-hand experience. Until then, I might keep an open scientific mind, because it is my personality to do so.
Further negative comments from others without first-hand experience say absolutely nothing to me about HHO generators or their viability, but rather only shed light on the personality of the individual making the remarks.
Andrew |
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Rhinoculips
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Joined: August 08, 2005
Posts: 918
Location: Keystone, Colorado
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
If I'm not mistaken, there's a fellow in this thread who made his own unit and posted pictures along with a claim of improved mileage and power and yet I'm pretty sure he isn't selling the units or attempting to profit any from the info. So far there has not been a single individual to post to this thread saying that they tried it and it didn't work. All of the arguments against have been based on the "It can't be true because..." followed by an argument of either 'conservation of energy' or 'if it were true everyone would be doing it', neither of which "hold water". I would also say that it doesn't fall into the category of the electric superchargers due to the fact that the electric superchargers do not flow enough CFM to create boost on even a small engine.
I have not personally tried the HHO generator and so cannot comment from first-hand experience. Until then, I might keep an open scientific mind, because it is my personality to do so.
Further negative comments from others without first-hand experience say absolutely nothing to me about HHO generators or their viability, but rather only shed light on the personality of the individual making the remarks.
Andrew |
Bravo! Hear hear!
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tencentlife
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Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Andrew. Wcdennis must not have read my post, because he basically repeated what Neal was arguing in barely-altered form. Your rebuttal was far more succinct than mine.
There are definitely scam artists making outrageous claims, and attempting to market these systems at outrageous prices (I'm still using that expensive toothpaste, too, but still have the same crappy job and no girlfriend). Likewise, that says nothing about the technology, but plenty about the personalities of those individuals and the nature of commerce.
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inspector58
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Location: Amarillo, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: more info |
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remraf
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Posts: 287
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: |
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What a coincidence. I was out at my father's shop yesterday working on my van and one of their regular customers was there with a really large ebook that he had printed out from one of the vendors. I spoke with him for a while about the hho production unit. I have an open mind to it for the same reasons mentioned above, haven't tried it so I can't deny it. One thing that seems far fetched is the claims. The hydrive linked to above looks like an engineered solution and claimed improvements on the order of 25-30 percent I believe. The printout this guy had claimed the car with that particular system went from 29mpg to 59mpg. I don't have enough knowledge in a variety of areas to know whether that is possible but it seems like it would be difficult.
If the presence of hydrogen is making the engine burn cleaner and the o2 sensor is sensing that and leaning it out, wouldn't you have to lean the motor way out to achieve those kind of numbers. For that kind of increase in mileage wouldn't you be burnin as much or more hydrogen as gas? Can any regular old gas motor run on hydrogen without modification? More importantly, how bout a wbxer? |
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inspector58
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Location: Amarillo, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: |
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busfreak_71
Flat 4 Junkie
Joined: April 29, 2007
Posts: 1191
Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm, I'm interested. inspector58, does the stainless steel you use corrode at all? Where did you get it?
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inspector58
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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