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Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:20 am    Post subject: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

This topic is posted hoping there's someone here who knows bays and 914/912E trivia.

I've been asked by a client to assemble a mostly stock 2.0L engine for his very stripped '74 914. He has a shortblock, heads, tin and exhaust manifolds, but very little else. I need to source the rest, but would like to build it L-Jet, so I figured the Bay vans would be a good source for the distributor, injection, harness and ECU, though I'm aware the intake will not be compatible.

Assuming the Bays are a good source for ancillaries, are there any other differences between the engines I should be aware of as I move forward. I built a 2.0L for my '80 van a couple decades ago, so I do have some experience, albeit dated and foggy.

Thanks in advance.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

This topic is well in my wheelhouse.

Incredibly there are very few major components shared between a 912E and Bus engine. The only major parts I can think of are the crankshaft and rods. Pistons are different, cylinders should be identical. Cylinder heads are different. Intake and exhaust all different. Almost all the sheet metal is different. The engine case is similar but not identical, probably could interchange. Oil pump is the same. Engine mounting points the same, bracketry different but easily adapted. Fan shrouds different but possibly similar enough to interchange.

If you were able to find a complete 912E induction system and 914 2.0 base engine (914 2.0 used D-jet but you can induct it any way you want) you could build a strong 914 2.0 with L-jet injection. Obviously a complete 912E engine is a great starting point but doubtless hard to come by without spending a lot of $, but the L-jet components from a 912E might be getable more readily. Not sure on how you would fasten and configure everything but since the 1.8l 914 engines used L-jet it should be doable in the 914 engine room. The 1.8l 914 is a strong engine also, 2.0 better if you are trying to make power.

Another route would be to use late Federal Bus/Vanagon 2.0 components. The '79 and '80 Federal L-jet system is the best in my experience, the ECU seems to be tuned better, there is no EGR originally, no vacuum retard. Components while not exactly plentiful, are mostly still available.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

Others will chime in with more detailed info, but in terms of the case, the 914 case the oil filler is in a different location. To use a bay oil filler/dipstick you have to open up that up on the case, but it’s the same internally. The heads on the 914 have a different spark plug angle. The holes in the tin for the plugs would have to be relocated. 914 cases are said to be more sought after because they tend to take less abuse than bus cases.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

Scott from German supply did a good job.

So let's be clear what you are doing. You are assembling an engine.....FOR a 914 (not a bus)....FROM a bus 2.0......right?

As stated.....there are enough differences in sheet metal, brackets, exhaust and intakes that you REALLY need to shop for a 914 specific pile of stuff.

If you want to make a 2.0 and you want to do justice in a 914.....it REALLY needs to be at least USA 2.0 914 spec. Otherwise it will be anemic in the 914 in its rpm band.

Aside from all the sheet metal differences....which are the small things that will just suck up lots of shopping time......there are about four "must haves" to get this done:

1. You need the correct pistons to make correct compression.

2. You need the correct heads. While the plug angle is the "main" difference....it's critical and there are subtle combustion chamber shape differences. Jake Raby has noted that the 2.0 914 heads collectively with stock compression and combustion chamber make an honest 10hp difference in the 2.0.
I think AA started making new 2.0 914 head castings a few years back (and pistons?) So they are available. You do not want real/stock 2.0 914 head castings as the collector car market for 912 and 914 had made the cost stupid.....and the original are very crack prone and by now most are expensive junk. Get new ones.

3. You need the 914 2.0 intake runners. The bus 1.8 and 2.0 runners are smaller. While having the 2.0 914 center manifold section would keep it normal fitting and looking and tuning....it's actually inferior in flow and turbulence to both the 1.7/1.8 plenum and the bus 2.0 plenum. So if you can get the 2.0 914 runners to fit a 2.0 bus plenum you can get away with it.

4. You need the 2.0 914 camshaft. I think others have stated that Web cam has grind #142?....which is essentially the stock 2.0 am for 914/912.

As for L-jet.....if you want to do that.....make a 1.8L instead of a 2.0L

The 1.8L 914 engine was 100% identical to the 1.8L with L-jet in the 412 cars. It ran decent....nearly equal a bit more power but with a little less throttle response than the high compression 1.7L that came in both 411/412 and 914 (100% identical in all three cars).

If you must have L-jet with a 2.0....which was essentially a one year only 912 set up....look for the intakes and AFM from a 912. Even in that set up....90hp was the output......with the same exact engine using D-jet injection in the 914....producing right at 99-100hp (tunability differences between D and L-jet).

That being said.....the 1.8L with L-jet in the 412 and 914....made 86hp....and with a tweak to compression and some tuning can make the same 90hp as the L-injected 2.0....but that's the limit of tunability for the L-jet. I know that for fact....but am not 100% sure that the L-jet injected 2.0 can make the same exact 100 hp as the D-injected 2.0.

Personally.....I would build the 2.0 with new heads and cam and stock 2.0 manifolds and runners....and put in aftermarket injection.....and you could easily build the 2.0 to European 2.0 standards which is ~110hp. Ray
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

Awesome information folks! I figured this was the best section to ask technical questions about these engines. I have way more access to bay and Vanagon parts than anything Porsche.

Here are a few pics of what the client handed me to start the longblock build. The heads definitely look different than I remember from my Vanagon build. Three studs on the intake and the temp sensor appears to be located in a different place.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The case is definitely different

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



[edit] I forgot to mention he wants 94mm P&Cs, so if anyone has recommendations for those, that would be great.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

the steel ring has been taken off the fan in that image. Be sure to put it on a jig or lathe when you put the steel fan belt ring on or it will be so far off the belt will beat things to death hopping.

The most common reason a 914 or 912-e engine gets substituted, is that it is the only one around. No sin in that but it just adds work. It would be true that bus engines get much more abuse than a light sports car does.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

That's an excellent starting point. 2.0l 914 heads and short block. Choose a cam, decide on what compression ratio you want to run, that will tell you what P&C to use. There were Euro spec for the 2.0 with a tiny tiny dish (almost flat) and USA spec with a small dish. German are better and very hard to come by but not impossible.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

germansupplyscott wrote:
That's an excellent starting point. 2.0l 914 heads and short block. Choose a cam, decide on what compression ratio you want to run, that will tell you what P&C to use. There were Euro spec for the 2.0 with a tiny tiny dish (almost flat) and USA spec with a small dish. German are better and very hard to come by but not impossible.


To add to this....have those heads checked VERY well. The 2.0 914 heads are very crack prone. The amount of work and welding required to fix them....now costs more than new 2.0L 914 clone castings.

If they are in excellent shape.... meaning no cracks and no weldijg required and aolid seats and guides....I would clean them up.....and sell them to a 914 person trying to RESTORE A 914.

For what they can bring....you can afford NEW 914 2.0 castings....which are better quality and not worn out...and probably pay for pistons too. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

Don't disagree with the above. Also noticed the heads seem to have ports for the smog pump. Easy enough to plug them but something else to think about.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

Wow, you folks are good! I broke out the magnifying lens and found that every cylinder has a short crack leading from the spark plug hole and heading toward (but well short of) the exhaust seat. Who would carry clone 2.0 heads?

Good eye on the smog ports. I was wondering what those holes in the fins were for, but hadn't yet thought to look into the exhaust ports for an exit. I've never seen that before.

It's amazing how many esoteric changes were made in these engines for each installation.

Thanks again for all the great information sharing.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

I think AA Performance makes the clone 914 2.0 castings. The original 2.0 heads might be worth fixing, depending. Bus 2.0 heads are basically never worth fixing. If the valves in your heads are serviceable they are worth a fortune. The exhaust valves alone cost hundred$ each valve, if you can find them. So don't abandon them yet.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

I don't know but some of those exhaust valves were sodium filled. Check that out because they are quite dangerous if the sodium is breached while servicing the valves.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

I'm wondering if my decision to go L-jet is the best, given that 914 specific examples are pretty rare. Then again, D-jet itself is kinda rare. I figured a late T2 or early T3 harness, AFM, injectors and ECU would be much easier to find and tune. Are the throttle bodies different between the D-jet and L-jet versions, or can they be interchanged between the plenums?

Also, I was thinking about using the stand alone electronic ignition from a Digijet WBX, or would it be better to use an aftermarket ignition...or stock?

Sorry to be geeking out on all this stuff, but it's kinda fun to return to my old aircooled roots after over 40 years when it all started.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
I'm wondering if my decision to go L-jet is the best, given that 914 specific examples are pretty rare. Then again, D-jet itself is kinda rare. I figured a late T2 or early T3 harness, AFM, injectors and ECU would be much easier to find and tune. Are the throttle bodies different between the D-jet and L-jet versions, or can they be interchanged between the plenums?

Also, I was thinking about using the stand alone electronic ignition from a Digijet WBX, or would it be better to use an aftermarket ignition...or stock?

Sorry to be geeking out on all this stuff, but it's kinda fun to return to my old aircooled roots after over 40 years when it all started.


Bluntly put, the stock 914, 411 and 412 with their higher compression, leaner burn and higher gearing....were just barely adequately ignited.

Just going to a better coil like a 42kv Pertronix coil makes a noticeable difference on these cars. A points replacement module is a bonus. The higher compression engines were under ignited.

D-jet is not rare....but its a big commitment. While it has more points of tuning than L-jet which is why it can be tuned tighter for slightly better performance.....its a pain in the ass for most.

I consider both L-jet and D-jet about equally rare now.

Back to teh ignition. You can use/rebuild a stock distributor and REALLY get better benefits through greater adjustability by installing something like a CB blackbox which allows using either points or module, any coil you want and gives you a 100 point ignition curve adjustability.

Really though...you can get all of this with a basic aftermarket injection system. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

You can get new AA Heads, which are a 914 clone, from AutoAtlanta's website. The Djet is a good basic FI system if you are going to use the stock Djet cam that came on the 2.0L 914's. If you want a performance cam, then you will have to go to twin Weber or Delorto carbs or a Megasquirt modern FI system. The Djet system doesn't work with performance cams because of the vacuum signature of hotter cams.

Used Djet FI system parts and wiring harness can be found at the 914World.com website's marketplace with a little patience.

The problem with the used 2.0L Porsche heads are their propensity to crack between the spark plug holes and valve seats. If cracked, used heads are not really worth it to repair them anymore, even if you can find a machine shop competent to do so. I think new heads can also be sourced from Pelican Parts and the Sierra Madre Collection's websites, both of which also sell lots of 914 parts. Used parts are available at the 914Werke's website.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:27 am    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

Quote:
Bluntly put, the stock 914, 411 and 412 with their higher compression, leaner burn and higher gearing....were just barely adequately ignited.


we ran a lean mixture in the 124 racing engine to get max heat and power, 11.5:1 compression, a long duration racing cam, a stock coil and distributor, and still managed to get 10,000 RPM on a 4 banger. When the fuel burns, one wants no left over fuel and no left over oxygen for max power. That makes max heat. VW and Porsche usually set their engines up to run slightly richer so not to melt aluminum piston crowns.

Honda ran its stratified charge engines up to 22:1. Anytime gasoline and oxygen are mixed somewhere between 12.5:1 and 17:1 there is absolutely no problem igniting the flame front. The plug gap and compression determines the firing voltage, not the ignition type as long as the coil can produce that voltage. The engine RPM can saturate the coil at a high enough RPM. 4-cyl engines only have half the given coil pulses at any given RPM compared to a V8, and 2/3 as many as a six cyl.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

if you go L-Jet, Jake Raby's testing has shown the Porsche 914 2.0 intake manifolds combined with the Bus Jetronic plenum to definitely perform the best.. i think ray already steered you in this direction

if your client has enough money these guys are hard to beat for parts
https://lnengineering.com/type-4-store.html

if you want to use hydraulic lifters like a bus 2.0 would have come with, then you want a Web 107i cam for the L-Jet ... i've heard people had problems with their lifters, though .. i'd be curious about running that cam with the lifters GoWesty sells..from a VW OEM

otherwise, you will want a Raby 9590 cam from LN Engineering with L-Jet

make sure you tune with a wide band

the 123 distributor plus L-Jet, with a nice AFM tuned with a wideband, is basically as good as a modern EFI system ... as long as the cam is compatible ... and it will take 1/100 the amount of time to tune and set up for proper fueling

just read Colin's HOWTOs and understand how the AFM wiper adjustment (baseline AFR) and cogwheel (AFR load sensitivity) adjustment work. setting idle AFR is pretty obviously and ultimately plays almost no role in the tune of the engine under load. tune for about .8 - 0.85 Lambda on load for maximum air cooled joy.... or about 12-12.5:1 if you read things with the lambda sensor displayed in gasoline AFR ... dont just throw the AFM on there with a custom engine and hope for the best... your engine temperature on the highway will basically be a direct product of AFR
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

if you are putting an engine in a bus you will want the most rugged items you can find, and also you will want a cam that peaks around 4200 (stock) - 4800 (RV cam) RPM. If you put a sports car cam in a bus, the weight of the bus will require down shifting early and over reving the engine to make power. A heavy bus will not respond to a quickly opening throttle like a light sports car will. A bus does not like to be treated as a sports car.

Both the blue and the green car in this photo are passing the others at the old Riverside in turn 6. Both won their classes that day, and both engines were built by Steve's Racing and Blueprinting. The blue car went to Road Atlanta for the finals in 1978 and the green one took a western title about the same time. You don't want a peaky cam in a bus. You want something more what they call an RV cam - something that gives good low end torque and peaks around 4500 - 4800 RPM. Both the green and the blue cars put out about 140 HP. The green car was a 1438 cc and the blue a 1608 cc. In their case the carb limited the HP the engines could make so the shorter stroke 1438 rev'd faster and beat the cars with larger engines. And they both beat 914-4's which were in FP. Len Hoffman and Jake raced Len's 914-4 in FP.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


here is a better shot of the green car driven by Charlie leading the FP and GP cars at Riverside.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

steve that is very cool, it would be great if you could share more of your stories somewhere.

the bit about stroke reminds me of the SCCA Trans-Am 302 Z28 camaro....
and many decades later what Honda did in the SCCA autoX/Gymkhana-ready "EG" Civic Type R (putting the B16 crank in the Integra 1.8 Type R engine)....

people always think bigger is better but its much easier to rev the piss out of something when you have a really short stroke and lower piston velocity.

for a 914... a very short stroke T4, 100mm nikasil, turbo and EFI would be my weapon of choice ;-)
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Bay and 914 2.0L similarities and differences Reply with quote

one of the first things I did was ask T4 engine builders which engines had the least wear on them when pulled apart. The 1700 and 1800's. Lower displacement, better cooling. Less torque than a 2L but could shed the heat better. What is a VW buses worst enemy? Heat. You have a lot of weight to move. How much hotter do you get carrying 45 lbs around on your back than 25? Same thing. Now walk up a hill. 100 years ago they could not build long grades so they built switchbacks to lower the grade. It is sad but air cooled buses were an after thought for VW. They were basically bugs modified to carry parts around the factory. Then they were low speed people movers and utility trucks. We really push the engines to their max. Remember - the type 1 and type 4 engines were made for light cars. VW never designed an engine for a bus, they modified a light car engine. Lots of manufacturers do that. I remember the first Triumph engines I bored and line bored for someone. It was essentially that same as a Massey Ferguson tractor engine from the late 40's early 1950's that Triumph stuffed into a sports car. I believe that basic engine kept the same general form all the way to the TR8.

If you want to go fast, first you must determine the limiting factors and work to improve them. In a bus it is shed heat.
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