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Dual PICT carbs?
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BirdLives
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:30 am    Post subject: Dual PICT carbs? Reply with quote

I've searched and can't find a thing...

Many people on here have talked about what a great carb the 30-PICT-1 is, solidly built and easy to adjust.

So why not have two of them? It would be way cheaper than Kadrons. Somebody has tried this right? You could fab up some intakes from old single port manifolds, but what about the linkage?
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Rome
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking out loud here. That carb in its stock location has a throttle arm that moves up/down in a longitudinal arc. Most of the cheaper universal carb linkages depend on the throttle arm moving in a sideways arc. The only two linkages that come to mind which can work with a long. arc movement would be the CB Performance and the GeneBerg linkage. You can make your own linkage "down rods" out of round aluminum stock that connect from the linkage itself to the carb's throttle arm, tapping the ends for a spherical rod end that you can buy either from Berg's or from an industrial supply company like McMaster. You probably could not turn the two PICT carbs sideways to end up with a horizontal arc since they are quite wide/deep and would most likely not give you enough room between the engine compartment side walls and the fan shroud.

That PICT carb has a small venturie, like 23mm. Such a setup would certainly give you some better performance than the stock SINGLE carb on a near-stock engine, but unless you have access to a skilled welder and some steel tubing, the time involved to fab the manifolds and fit a linkage would be hours. If time is money, you'd eat that $ up real fast compared to buying a nice complete kit like aircooled.net's Solex35mm setup.
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BirdLives
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll probably end up with Kads when I get the $, I'm just cheap and trying to be creative. I have way more time than money (though not enough of either)

I bet I could turn the carbs to face each other like you suggest cause I have plenty of room in the ghia engine compartment. Couldn't one of the "centerpull" linkages that everyone hates work then?

As far as the manifolds, a crude solution would be to hack the "feet" off a stock manifold and weld a flange on top.

Ideally it would be cool to have some custom made in aluminum. Aren't there calculations for ideal intake lenth and soforth?

So nobody out there is running (or has run) dual PICT's? I can't be the first one to think about this.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I could turn the carbs to face each other "

There lies another problem. If you turn the carbs that way, one of them will have the throttle arm on the "wrong" side of the carb. For both the centerpull or the up/down linkages, the throttle arms have to be facing the REAR of the CAR. If you do turn your carbs sideways "facing" each other, then you'll have to relocate the throttle arm onto the other side of one of the carbs. I have not checked that carb to see if there is enough material on the throttle shaft for this. Most likely you will also not have the cast-in throttle stop if you do that. Also, you will not be able to easily access the mixture screw on that same carb!

The stock Kadron linkage acts on both carbs with the throttle arms going in a transverse (left to right) arc both at the same time. That is, the linkage causes both carb arms to move to the left. On other carbs like Weber 40IDFs as well as many single-throats like VW's own Type 3 solex 32 PDSITs, the carbs are installed "mirror image" so that when you activate the linkage, the left carb's throttle arm rotates CW, the other carb rotates CCW. Such a movement can be achieved with a centerpull linkage (type 3), or one that comes down from the top (Berg, CB).

Having Ghia is quite a bonus for carb experimentation. Just need to find a low air cleaner, or one with an offset neck that can be swung around so as not to hit the fan shroud and still clear the decklid. Remember that in general, a longer intake manifold for dual carbs gives you more power atlower rpms, and a short manifold power at higher rpms. There certainly are formulas for that, but I think if you can borrow a Kadron dual-port manifold to measure the length from flange to flange, that should be a good guideline for your experimentation/fabrication.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:06 am    Post subject: dual pitc Reply with quote

I have a couple of PITC 34 carbs and some neat alum manifolds for kadrons. Mating the two will require an adapter/spacer maybe 1 1/2" or 2" tall. I think I can make the spacers out of delron without too much difficulty. I've been considering mounting the carbs with the "stock" front to back orientation which will require an asymetrical linkage setup. Lots of time? Well yes it will take a bit of time but the PITC is a better carb than the kadron (in my opinion) and retaining the electric chokes will be a real advantage for regular street use and rejetting the PITC isn't all that much of a chore. Also I like to experiment a bit so won't consider the time to be wasted. This setup will certainly be WAY down in peak power over the dual 40 dells I now have on my 2165 but I'm looking for usable low end torque and instant throttle response on the street for my heavy daily driver ghia. 40x35 CB 044 heads and the long manifold runners with the adapters should keep port velocity pretty high which I hope will translate to good street manners and quick throttle response. If it doesn't work, the dells go back on.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: dual pitc Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies, great insight.

gerico wrote:
This setup will certainly be WAY down in peak power over the dual 40 dells I now have on my 2165 but I'm looking for usable low end torque and instant throttle response on the street for my heavy daily driver ghia.


That's exactly what I'm looking for too. I like the idea of starting with Kadron manifolds and making adapters.

As for the linkage, what brand/type would be a good one to try and modify? That is with both carbs facing forward like normal.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gene Berg's. It attaches to the fan shroud with 3 bolts (2 upper generator backing plate bolts and the top one for the coil) so that the "down rods" to the carb throttle arms move freely. The CB Performance linkage is based on the concept of having a rigid base plate mounted to the top of the carb which supports the cross-arm. You'd be doing alot of adapting with the single-throat Solex carb for this unless you buy a kit for either baby Dellorto carbs or Weber ICTs. Just remember, though- Kadron carbs mount onto the manifold "sideways"; that is, the carb to manifold bolts are situated cross-wise. If you install the stock Solex PICT carb onto a Kad manifold, the carb will sit sideways unless you make a spacer like mentioned above that orients the PICT to the front/rear. Or slice off the flange and turn/reweld it 90degrees. And then you still have to worry about how to get at the mixture screw on one side, unless you turn the carb mirror image so that the mixture screws face outward on both carbs. And then you once again have the problem that the throttle arms will open in opposite arcs, but the Berg linkage can accomodate this of you make up some weirdly shaped down rod yourself.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is really sounding feasable.
Here's the plan:

-get a second 30-PICT-1
-get some Kad manifolds, make some manifold adapters
-get the Berg linkage and try to modify it
-mess with it until I cry
-give up and shell out the $400 for the Kads after all

I'll have an extra stock carb and a good story when I'm done.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did it a couple years ago on a dune buggy I made.
I ran 2 30pict-1 carbs onva 40hp and it was super fun.
I made a simple linkage setup that consisted of a stainless steel bar on the "front' side of the fan shroud that ran through 3 round nylon bushings in L-brackets I welded to the shroud, the throttle cable attached to an arm in the middle of the bar- and an arm at each end (same as the center, but slightly adjustable) with a pivot at the end w/ small section of cable that pulled each throttle open.
If I built it again I could do it MUCH better, it was just an experiment. I made the manifolds out of pipe, and 2 a couple old stock 40hp manifolds.
Sorry, no pictures...but I could draw a diagram if you ever get nuts and want to try. Ran good and easy to tune too...for a 40hp.
But Kadrons would be waaaaaaaaaay better and easier for anyting that wasn't just an experiment.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Thanks Bob, I knew somebody had done this before.

I think I get what you're saying about the linkage, sounds like I could try to fab that up from scratch and not even mess with the Berg.

2 more questions:

-Did you run an equalizer tube between the manifolds?

-Did you change the jetting on the carbs?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An alternative to Kads is the relatively new dual Solex 35s from Scat. Complete new setup costs under $300 WITH electric chokes. If I get tired of playing around with fabrication of the dual; PITC setup this is the way I'm going to go.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is really sounding feasable.
Here's the plan:

-get a second 30-PICT-1
-get some Kad manifolds, make some manifold adapters
-get the Berg linkage and try to modify it
-mess with it until I cry
-give up and shell out the $400 for the Kads after all

I'll have an extra stock carb and a good story when I'm done.


I've seen a couple of cobbled together dual PICT carbs sets for sale, but never a "running on car" set-up. Please let us know how it works, successful or not.

Good Luck - Rich
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanna know how it goes, too! I posted another thread on here this morning about my neighbor's pair of 28 pict solex carbs and cobbling together a dual carb setup with those. I think I'll go ahead and start working on what it would take to do that now that snow is just around the corner, especially as someone posted to my thread, pointed me to this thread and said dual 28 pict would be better than a single 34.

Woo hoo! Cheap *** power! ... well, still not MUCH power, I'm sure, but more than now! Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BirdLives wrote:
This is really sounding feasable.
Here's the plan:

-get a second 30-PICT-1
-get some Kad manifolds, make some manifold adapters
-get the Berg linkage and try to modify it
-mess with it until I cry
-give up and shell out the $400 for the Kads after all

I'll have an extra stock carb and a good story when I'm done.


So, I finally decided to pick up the pair of 28 pict-1 and single 30 pict-1 carbs from my neighbor (see pics at my blog linked below.) I played around with 'em tonight just taking them apart, seeing how they worked and if everything seemed to still be there.

I canibalized some parts off the 30 to make sure both 28 picts were complete. Now, I really need to get a bucket of solvent and clean them up. It's currently raining outside and it's supposed to turn to snow any time now. So, I'm thinking it's now time to go ahead with my own experiment!

Got a question, though: you say you're going to use some Kadron manifolds but need to make some manifold adapters. Why? Do 28 or 30 pict carbs not fit on Kadron manifolds, so you need adapters? Also, I heard that you can't use a vacuum advance line from the distributor to dual carbs. So, do I just plug the vacuum advance ports on both carbs?

I might be getting ahead of myself worrying about the vacuum advance and all that. For now, I'm going to wait to worry about that stuff and balancing them and all the finer details after I get all the hardware purchased and eventually in place to do this thang. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, this is great that you're going to try it. I haven't gotten past the 'thinking' stage.

I don't know if the pict's will fit on the kad manifolds, I am assuming they won't. Even if the stud spacing is the same, the carbs will be sitting sideways (like Rome mentioned earlier in this thread). I think it's important that the picts be oriented in their original direction for linkage purposes and also so they won't flood/cut out on hills? Not sure about that. There's also the issue of finding single-port kad manifolds (you have a single-port right?), there are usually some in the classifieds.

As for the vacuum advance, you can run your vacuum line off the drivers side carb and plug up the port on the passenger side. This may not be ideal, but I have heard of people doing that with dual carbs. I'm pretty sure it would be better than using a centrifugal advance distributor, these carbs work better with vacuum dizzys.

One question I haven't had answered is whether or not to run an equalizer tube between the manifolds. I think it might be a good idea, especially with only one carb sending a vacuum singal.

Most people agree that you don't need chokes with dual carbs, so you can wedge them open or just remove the whole assembly and plug up the resulting holes.

One last idea on the linkage. When the two carbs are facing forward, the throttle arms will both be on the left. But, you really wouldn't even need to use the arm on the drivers side carb, you could rig something up to the right side of the throttle shaft where the accelerator pump attaches. That way your linkage would stay on the inboard side of both carbs. (did that make sense? just an idea)

If you've got the carbs apart it would be good time to rebuild them. The gasket sets are cheap and it's pretty easy. Lots of good threads on that already so I won't get into all that. When your done I would test each carb on your existing engine and get them somewhat tuned. Maybe you already did that? It would suck to go through all this work and find out the carbs were shot to begin with.

Well, I wish you luck and keep us posted. Maybe dual pict's will be the next big thing!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a couple of thoughts. If you run a stock or mild cam ... using the vacuum signal from one carb will work fine for your dizzy. Those that have trouble have to tee both vacuum signals together and then run it to the dizzy to provide a strong enough signal. When you're designing your linkage ... keep in mind the length from the throttle pivot, the angle of your crossbar arms and the length of your downrods. Do a little geometric planning before you decide which side of the carb you attach your downrods to. If the measurements aren't the same for both carbs ... one will lead the other or they will open at differing rates. Not smooth, and impossible to sync.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BirdLives wrote:
I don't know if the pict's will fit on the kad manifolds, I am assuming they won't. Even if the stud spacing is the same, the carbs will be sitting sideways (like Rome mentioned earlier in this thread). I think it's important that the picts be oriented in their original direction for linkage purposes and also so they won't flood/cut out on hills? Not sure about that. There's also the issue of finding single-port kad manifolds (you have a single-port right?), there are usually some in the classifieds.


That's a good point about how the carbs would sit on the Kad manifolds even if the bolt spacing was right. I'll consider it a moot point whether they fit on the Kads, then. Although, if they do fit on the tops of the Kads, why not hacksaw them and turn them 90 degrees? Especially as an adapter would add height to the carbs and we need to save all the vertical space we can with those hood springs in the way.

Oh, and mine's actually a dual port! So, guess I'm lucky Smile. I would think making single port manifolds would be rather easy, though. Take the bottoms of an existing SP, single carb manifold and attach them to a pair of tops with existing straight tubing from the manifolds.

Of course, all this talk about cutting and welding assumes we know how to ... and I don't! =) I'll have a friend of mine help me with that part.

Quote:
As for the vacuum advance, you can run your vacuum line off the drivers side carb and plug up the port on the passenger side. This may not be ideal, but I have heard of people doing that with dual carbs. I'm pretty sure it would be better than using a centrifugal advance distributor, these carbs work better with vacuum dizzys.

One question I haven't had answered is whether or not to run an equalizer tube between the manifolds. I think it might be a good idea, especially with only one carb sending a vacuum singal.


My understanding is the equalizer tube would ensure that the motor doesn't get horribly out-of-balance if one carb should run significantly leaner than the other at some point. Ideally you'd want to keep them tuned to prevent that happening, but I'm sure a balance tube is a great fail safe. And, yeah, I think that would mean you could hook a vac advance to one not both and it should work OK.

Quote:
Most people agree that you don't need chokes with dual carbs, so you can wedge them open or just remove the whole assembly and plug up the resulting holes.


Really? Interesting. What's the rationale behind that? Keep in mind I live in Minnesota and we tend to like our electronic chokes up here. Smile It does seem that I've got working chokes on both, so I might just use them since I've got 'em.

Quote:
One last idea on the linkage. When the two carbs are facing forward, the throttle arms will both be on the left. But, you really wouldn't even need to use the arm on the drivers side carb, you could rig something up to the right side of the throttle shaft where the accelerator pump attaches. That way your linkage would stay on the inboard side of both carbs. (did that make sense? just an idea)


I see what you're saying. Yeah, makes sense as it's all the same rod, so you attach something to that end of it and it would pull the throttle back just the same. Good idea!

But, you know, I've wondered why all this mucking about with linkages and arms like that when you could thread cable through housing like on a bicycle to pull the throttles directly as if they were a single carb. Hmm ... might be too much friction in the housing and cables to be effective. I'd guess there's a good reason to go with linkages over more cabling. Anyone? Smile

Quote:
If you've got the carbs apart it would be good time to rebuild them. The gasket sets are cheap and it's pretty easy. Lots of good threads on that already so I won't get into all that. When your done I would test each carb on your existing engine and get them somewhat tuned. Maybe you already did that? It would suck to go through all this work and find out the carbs were shot to begin with.


I thought about that (testing them out as single carbs). And, yeah, I plan on rebuilding them. One's pretty dirty, so it certainly needs cleaning.

Quote:
Well, I wish you luck and keep us posted. Maybe dual pict's will be the next big thing!


I'll post updates on my blog as I go! This should be fun. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clearsurf2001 wrote:
Here's a couple of thoughts. If you run a stock or mild cam ... using the vacuum signal from one carb will work fine for your dizzy. Those that have trouble have to tee both vacuum signals together and then run it to the dizzy to provide a strong enough signal. When you're designing your linkage ... keep in mind the length from the throttle pivot, the angle of your crossbar arms and the length of your downrods. Do a little geometric planning before you decide which side of the carb you attach your downrods to. If the measurements aren't the same for both carbs ... one will lead the other or they will open at differing rates. Not smooth, and impossible to sync.


That is something I've been quite curious about: how to keep the two carbs synced. I'm sure uneven pull from a linkage would be a big problem! Also, thanks for recognizing that what we're attempting here is a stock/mild performance upgrade. I think what's unique about this experiment is it's not about getting the most raw power out of our motors or trying to show up people on a drag strip. We're just tryin to tweak old, stock parts to perform better than stock.

I don't know why, but I've always been a fan of tweaking old technology. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:44 am    Post subject: The manifold issue ... Reply with quote

Check this classified out:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=214969

The guy who posted it calls them "mystery" manifolds but I believe they're Kadrons. The nice thing is the measuring tape he put up to the carb mounts. I measured my 28 pict and there's a full inch difference between these manifolds and my 28 pict carbs. Even though the manifolds have slotted spots for the bolts the narrowest part of the slot looks to be 1/4 to 1/2 inches too wide for my bolts.

So, it looks like adapters are the way to go if we want to fit these old carbs on Kadron manifolds (a good idea anyway, as we already stated for the angle issue.)

If you'll notice in the picture on my blog I've got what looks like a spacer for the 30 pict carb. I'm guessing building an adapter would be a matter of cutting something like that, rotating the parts 90 degrees in relation to each other and there ya go.

Ooh, ooh! Or, cut that one spacer I've got directly in half and weld each side on top of the Kad manifolds! Saaaaaay ... Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you have a dual-port, you have WAY more options for the manifolds. I would try to find some aluminum ones and go from there. The aluminum will conduct the heat really well and keep the fuel/air mixture in good suspension. This is why you shouldn't need the chokes, even in MN. The main reason I suggested diching the chokes is because it could potentially make the linkage simpler without them.

You are obviously a patient a thorough man to reply to my rambling post point-by-point. Just the type of person to get this project to work! Looking forward to the results.
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