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stanthedog Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2006 Posts: 357 Location: Portland,oregon.
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:31 pm Post subject: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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Thought I posted about this a while back but couldn't find it.
The 1600 in my ghia broke a valve. now I'm working on fixing it with out having to rebuild the whole engine. The head is toast, broken valve hit the seat and bent it. today I checked the deck height to see if it bent the rod, all 4 are within .002". Is this a good indication that the rod is not bent. |
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slalombuggy Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 9147 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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The rod might be OK, but is the crank torqued? TDC might have moved for that cylinder if that throw on the crank was twisted back. What does that rod bearing look like?
Putting a fresh top end on an old bottom end is a great way to hasten the demise of the old bottom end. Your engine suffered a catastophic failure take it all apart and check EVERYTHING. Valves break because they are old, overheated, or worn out, what's the rest of the engine like?
brad |
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ach60 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2001 Posts: 4139 Location: Santa Maria
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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I would pull it a part and do it right.
The solution you suggested is what you would do if you were on the road somewhere, and needed to get home.
But I'd like to add that a OG or forged Piston may take the abuse and transfer the forces directly into the rod and crank.
A hypereutectic piston will simply shatter leaving you with 100's of pieces for your oil pump to find. _________________ Good Luck
Al
Last edited by ach60 on Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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stanthedog Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2006 Posts: 357 Location: Portland,oregon.
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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Didn't want to tear it all the way down. But I know your right. For a budget build I guess I'm looking at new bearings, rings, exhast valves. and clean everything up.It's filthy and covered in sludge, even the #3&4 jugs fins are packed with sludge.(It was like that when I bought it) |
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glideking Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2013 Posts: 990 Location: California
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stanthedog Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2006 Posts: 357 Location: Portland,oregon.
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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got the jugs off,cleaned up, measure less than a thou taper. smooth as glass tho, so I'll do a light hone and new rings.
before and after cleaning
just a little dirty
ouch. head no good. |
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stanthedog Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2006 Posts: 357 Location: Portland,oregon.
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve,new pics |
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Bit blurry, |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13389 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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I get budget builds but am in the camp that top ends on unknown mileage bottom ends don't have a happy ending. You should at least pull the rods off and check the bearings on them. It will give you a better idea of how worn the engine is. For the amount of filth and oil, etc.. it probably has lots of miles on it. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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FeelthySanchez Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011 Posts: 1349 Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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An exercise in futility: broken valve + mangled head = bent rod.
Only a fool or flat-broke guy would re-ring that compromised piston.
If on a tight budget, just exchange the torqued crank for a regrind, replace the bent rod (or better yet - all 4), then alignbore the case & rebuild the entire engine.
stanthedog wrote: |
...... today I checked the deck height to see if it bent the rod, all 4 are within .002". Is this a good indication that the rod is not bent. |
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modok wrote: |
I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
Ryan Tucker wrote: |
Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21518 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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All of that....plus....good God....that is a greasy grimy case. You will never get that back together with that much leaked and baked on oil...and get cylinders to seal.
That and your pistons look oily and carbonized. I would trip it all the way down. Send the case out to be cleaned. Get a new or used head and have both rebuilt with new valves.
Clean the grooves in the pistons and clean the tops. Just for giggles...measure for collapsed skirts...measure the main bearings and crank.
If all is well....you will have the cost of two rebuilt heads, main, rod and cam bearings, some cleaning work and a gasket set.
Just from Aircooled.net without seraching all around:
Gasket set: German with flywheel seal $25
Stock rebuilt/rebushed, balanced with new nuts connecting rod set $129
Rod bearings $19.95
Cam Bearings $17.95
Crank Main bearings $39 to $45
Pushrod tubes 8 x$3 = $24
Stock dual port head complete new on Chinese castings $179..really just get two if I were you.
About $35 for basic cast iron rings.
So if the crank, cam, lifters and pistons check out...rering it and do a basic refurb...bearings and rods...and you can get away with about $650 in parts...say $700 with Tax and shipping...call it $750 total with bits and pieces.
Clean out the oil cooler...or personally I would replace it. Ray |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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The thing I notice about your engine is just how dirty and how much build up there is on everything. You want to get that all cleaned up even if you must use a toothbrush and mineral sprits on it to keep from getting any dirt inside the case if you don't split it and rebuild the bottom end too.
But Man that thing must have some miles on it to have that much build up. How worn out are the cylinders? They should be smooth without a ridge at the top and bottom of the piston stroke, If there is a wave or a ridge in the cylinder wall that you can feel then also get new pistons and cylinders for it.
Usually when a valve drops it goes right through the top of the piston. Were you the one driving when it happened? What Happened? How did it act? _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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new crank, new case, new heads, new cylinders, new everything and you should be good to go...as long as it is all done wright. |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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stanthedog Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2006 Posts: 357 Location: Portland,oregon.
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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I was doing about 40 in 4th, then started clattering to beat hell, clutch in and key off instantly, rolled into a gas station. I could actually turn it all the way over by hand at first, thought it was something else at that point. But when I got it home and turned it over(by hand) it stopped. Knew I was boned at that point. Pic of piston top.
Rings are all nice and free. thought that was interesting. |
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FeelthySanchez Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011 Posts: 1349 Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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The same blown #2 cyl archived from 2013?
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:16 pm.
"Got the engine out, head off. I'm wondering if the piston and rod are OK, piston has a divit about 1/16" or so deep. head might be repairable. has a pretty good crater in it."
If so, appears it had been sick/dying for quite a while there, & was just waiting for the flowers
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modok wrote: |
I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
Ryan Tucker wrote: |
Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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stanthedog Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2006 Posts: 357 Location: Portland,oregon.
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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One and the same. That's the bad one. other head is OK.
Picked up a used set of heads today. the guy tried removing the guides on one and cracked it. so I still have one. |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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So looks like you went with a different bottom end back then to get it running and your now looking into salvaging this thing. It's hard to say what it did. I knew of a bus that was driven 2 years with a dropped valve, It went through the piston and was out of the way inside the crankcase it just kept running fine on 3 cylinders. But Yeah, I would not waste much money on new parts if your not going to do the bottom end. I've got a head I will donate! _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21518 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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stanthedog wrote: |
One and the same. That's the bad one. other head is OK.
Picked up a used set of heads today. the guy tried removing the guides on one and cracked it. so I still have one. |
Not being pointy.....but Looking at that grimy hot running mess of an engine case.....that the other head is NOT....ok.
At least not enough in high mileage condition to run with new rings and a rebuilt head on the other side. Valves and Springs have a lifespan....seats too.
Now seeing that you have a battered piston in your wnd set of pics.....i would not reuse the pistons.
As mark Tucker noted.....really it would be simpler and waste less parts for more miles.....to just save the case and crank.....and "maybe" the cam....and rebuild it.
Just what is your budget?
Ray |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
but Looking at that grimy hot running mess of an engine case |
Yes looking at that too. You know I think this engine being a 10mm stud engine may have a pulled stud so the heads were leaking oil and compression that caused that. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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stanthedog Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2006 Posts: 357 Location: Portland,oregon.
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: fixing a 1600 with dropped valve |
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Danwvw, I happened to have a new 2074 just laying around waiting for a car, so I was only down about 2 weeks. At this point, I'm going to split the case and at least put new bearings in it, then I can do a thorough checkout. As mark tucker showed-bearings are cheap. |
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