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Dual Weber 34 ICT or dual Weber40 IDF ?
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tinnocker
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:48 am    Post subject: Dual Weber 34 ICT or dual Weber40 IDF ? Reply with quote

As soon as I posted this question in the FG buggy section I knew I had posted in the wrong spot. I apologized and only got one response so I will post it in the engine section.
I have a dual port engine that came in my Glitterbug. It was running with a single progressive carb. I don't know what size the engine is but I am going to build it to a 1776 or 18(??). I want dual carbs and want to buy new. Although I am capable of rebuilding a used carb with instructions, I don't know what to look for and don't want to buy someone's junk.This will be for cruising, but I want performance for an occasion burst of speed. I want to stay away from any Empi carbs and I want dual carbs for looks and when tuned right I read the performance is better and that the mpg's are fair. I have researched and know that Dells are good but can you still buy them new? Their is one dealer on the internet that only sells Kadrons and swears by them. I am leaning toward either dual Weber 34 ICT or dual Weber40 IDF. I know that the Weber 40 is almost twice as much as the Weber 34. Could the Weber 40 be tweeked to give the milage of the Weber 34? I know that I would have to play with the jets with any carb that I buy and they would have to be syncronized. For a 1700-1800 engine for performance and milage which would you reccomend. I would like to have real world mpg's with the carb you reccomend. Thanks.
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madmike
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would go for the 40 IDF's,Now five guys will comeback with Kad's or some other dual ONE barrel carbs are the best!! I say BULL$hit Think this out, with IDF's each cyl. has it's own throat for tuning and performance, IMHO,MadMike
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sactojesse
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Dual Weber 34 ICT or dual Weber40 IDF ? Reply with quote

tinnocker wrote:
Could the Weber 40 be tweeked to give the milage of the Weber 34?

IME, you'll get better mileage w/ a properly sized and jetted pair of two-barrel Weber 40 IDFs or Dellorto 36 DRLAs than you will with dual single-barrel carbs like the ICTs. The reason is that much of your driving can be done on the "idle" circuit on the IDFs and DRLAs, which is actually a low speed circuit, whereas you'd be tapping into the main circuit on the ICTs.
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tinnocker
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would seem the Weber 40 IDF would be the best of both worlds. It would give me the performance and get better milage. I know they look great and if the milage is better it would help balance the difference in cost from the Webber 34ICT. I was encouraged to go with the Weber 34 on the buggy board. I would like to hear from others. I know there are lots of buggies that are running dual Weber 34s or dual Weber 40s. I need some more opinions before I buy. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go with the dual 40 Webers. Smile
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josh
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sactojesse wrote:
IME, you'll get better mileage w/ a properly sized and jetted pair of two-barrel Weber 40 IDFs or Dellorto 36 DRLAs than you will with dual single-barrel carbs like the ICTs. The reason is that much of your driving can be done on the "idle" circuit on the IDFs and DRLAs, which is actually a low speed circuit, whereas you'd be tapping into the main circuit on the ICTs.


While it may be true that he would get better mileage with the IDFs or DRLSs, it's not true that the ICTs run on the main circuit most of the time. ICTs also run on the idle jet most of the time and can also get excellent fuel economy.

I would agree that the IDFs are a better all around carburetor. I just wanted to point out that this is not one of the ICTs faults.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to decide on the rest of your engine before you choose a carb. It's hard to give a carb recommendation without knowing the rest of the engine details. Heads, cam, and exhaust all play an importamt roll in your choice.

I believe you have already made up your mind on the 40 IDF's, so you might as well buy them.
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Wilfredo R
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking of buying some Dual Carbs that are good quality and aren't to expensive. Would these be good? I was also considering Weber 34 Ict Carbs made from Empi but not sure which is better.
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1180
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mharney
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josh wrote:
sactojesse wrote:
IME, you'll get better mileage w/ a properly sized and jetted pair of two-barrel Weber 40 IDFs or Dellorto 36 DRLAs than you will with dual single-barrel carbs like the ICTs. The reason is that much of your driving can be done on the "idle" circuit on the IDFs and DRLAs, which is actually a low speed circuit, whereas you'd be tapping into the main circuit on the ICTs.


While it may be true that he would get better mileage with the IDFs or DRLSs, it's not true that the ICTs run on the main circuit most of the time. ICTs also run on the idle jet most of the time and can also get excellent fuel economy.

I would agree that the IDFs are a better all around carburetor. I just wanted to point out that this is not one of the ICTs faults.


ICTs have a very short idle circuit. You're out of them early and into the mains at cruise.
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Wilfredo R
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What set of carbs do you consider? Its hard to find 34 Weber Icts with electric chokes too
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mharney
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If given the choice between the two IDFs would be my choice. With that said, I have done quite a few ICT rebuilds, some have had to be rebushed when the bore is egged and it causes the shaft seals to break seal and leak.

I like ICTs for an inexpensive solution for smaller engines. The venturis are cast in and hence fixed, so they are not easily sized up for larger engines.

If money is not the driving force, I choose IDFs.

Electric chokes on duals are for grandma. Real men don't need them. IDFs have enrichment circuits but nearly no one goes through the headache of trying to set them up. Hard to do accurately on our engines.
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Wilfredo R
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

though, wouldn't it take awhile for the car to warm up without the choke? As for the Ict, i was considering this http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=633430 I'm trying to get something thats under the $300 maybe 350 range.
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Scott Novak
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For smaller a displacement engine such as a 1776, dual 40 IDFs would be a great choice. Just select the right venturi size for your application.

I bought a pair of NOS Italian made 40 IDFs on ebay for about $315 for the pair.

Scott
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mharney wrote:
josh wrote:
sactojesse wrote:
IME, you'll get better mileage w/ a properly sized and jetted pair of two-barrel Weber 40 IDFs or Dellorto 36 DRLAs than you will with dual single-barrel carbs like the ICTs. The reason is that much of your driving can be done on the "idle" circuit on the IDFs and DRLAs, which is actually a low speed circuit, whereas you'd be tapping into the main circuit on the ICTs.


While it may be true that he would get better mileage with the IDFs or DRLSs, it's not true that the ICTs run on the main circuit most of the time. ICTs also run on the idle jet most of the time and can also get excellent fuel economy.

I would agree that the IDFs are a better all around carburetor. I just wanted to point out that this is not one of the ICTs faults.


ICTs have a very short idle circuit. You're out of them early and into the mains at cruise.


The secret to understanding the critical nature of the carburetor set up and the advantages of a WEBER
over other carburetors is the Idle circuit. Referred to as the low speed circuit by Weber,
this circuit is responsible for 80% of the driving operation.
This is the reason that the Weber should give a fuel economy improvement over most factory carbs
along with significant performance gains. In the worst case you should not see a significant fuel economy loss over stock,
while improving HP & Drivability.

[quote] from Chirco themselves on dual ICT 34mm webers.
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Wilfredo R
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone reccomended me these carbs. Which would run better? http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1180
or
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=554368
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Marv [UK]
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carbs are generally a personal choice and mostly depends on what you will use your engine for.

All carbs have good points and bad points depending on your use. In some cases, a single body carb is better.... but not often.

Carburation is effectively variable fuel metering based on the demands of the engine at any given time. The mechanics of airflow are very well known thanks to Bernoulli, anyway. to cut a long story down drastically carburation is a compromise. single carbs compromise for all 4 cylinders, dual carbs compromise for 2 and dual twin carbs compromise over idle and WOT on one cylinder. Due to the nature of compromise, dual twins compromise less than singles but are harder to set up.

The benefits of dual twins outweigh the buggering about though.

Now, new carbs are most definately not better than old ones reconditioned correctly. Bocar carbs are no where near the quality of Solex etc.... this applies to brazillian webers over genuine italian ones. Italian ones are so far better than the brazillian ones that it's a no brainer.

there are other things to consider as well. Dellorto Carbs are considered to be better than Weber.... A dellorto DRLA 36 is equivalent to a Weber 40 and so on. Tri Jet DRLA's are the creme de la creme of the carburettor world

Given that you are going for a 1776 or 1835 and want power AND economy then you're going to be spending more money on your carb than you'd like. Once again, it's a compromise, less power and more economy or vice versa.. Your best bet would be a small body dual barrel carb

For info, i'm running a 2017 with DRLA's. 32 vents, 140 mains and 60 idles and even in a bus i'm getting 25 to the (UK) gallon (4.54 litres as opposed to 3.8 litres to the US gallon) which is way more than I was getting in my bus with a 1600 dual port, and i'm turning 110HP at the wheels at 4800 revs. Forgot my torque reading Sad

The questions you need to ask yourself are what do you want more and what compromises are you going to make... spend less, more power, better economy......... Don't forget you've got to fork out for the linkage too......

34ICT's will work great with your combo, no questions about it. perfectly good carb and suited for a 1776 to 1914 engine. But there are better carbs that cost more.... your choice. DO you want to upgrade to a 2017 / 2276 etc in future and not shell out for bigger carbs again?

If it was my engine, i'd go with DRLA's or IDF's (but not a new set if you could help it. they don't make Dells any more) but then there are the DCNF's to consider as well, or even Zeniths. Kads get a bad press but are cost effective if money is tight. If you do a lot of offroading and your carbs are vulnerable, then a single progressive might be worth considering..... recon costs can mount up as can the additional kit you need with them..... a set of big ass DRLA's / Webers with the full works can cost $700!

Basically, we need to know more about what you want to do with the car and the (exact?) performance you want to achieve and the amount you want to spend and the economy you hope for before we can be anything more than vague.... 40 IDF's can be more economical than 34's, or less so, but the important thing is they are more variable than ICT's

Stab in the dark guesswork and i'd say ICT's would be fine and affordable
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Wilfredo R
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm looking for reliable dual carbs that will give me an extra boost and better fuel economy than my stock 34-3 pict carb that doesn't cost too much, like the ones on my last post. I was also looking into Weber 34 Ict's but they are made by empi.. I hear lots of people use it but also hear that sometimes it isn't good. So I was thinking of the solex carbs in my last post
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Marv [UK]
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilfredo R wrote:
I'm looking for reliable dual carbs that will give me an extra boost and better fuel economy than my stock 34-3 pict carb that doesn't cost too much, like the ones on my last post. I was also looking into Weber 34 Ict's but they are made by empi.. I hear lots of people use it but also hear that sometimes it isn't good. So I was thinking of the solex carbs in my last post


I was thinking more along the lines of

" I want it to rev to 6000revs, get about 80HP and 30 to the gallon" type of performance spec.

ANY dual carb will give you a performance boost and economy boost over the stock carb, as will a single progressive, but it's more about how much you want to spend and how much of a boost you want....

Ask me again and i's say the same thing.... 34 ICT's (but get an old pair, not new) unless you can give us some more info.

for info
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=726383

Off an Alfa. will need manifolds, linkage, rebuild and jetting

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=739187


Again, used carbs
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=638210
will need accessories

How much do you want to spend?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=738932

but is supect THIS IS MORE LIKE WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE AND NEED
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=705478

Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy
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Wilfredo R
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen many Weber 34 Ict's sold on here:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=633430
(was wondering if this one would be good, it is the cheapest new Ict on here)

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=583285
I sorta like this one better because its made in spain instead of by empi

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=698158
This guy has them made by spain as well. I contacted this guy and he told me that a lot of these carbs don't work well and he has reccommended me the Solex 35 Duals made by scat. Which also catches my eye, "Solex"
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Scott Novak
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilfredo R wrote:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=698158
This guy has them made by spain as well. I contacted this guy and he told me that a lot of these carbs don't work well

The Weber IDFs pictured in the ad are supposedly USA made Webers and some of the WORST ever made. Several people were told that the IDFs being sold were made in Spain, but it appears that they are actually made in the USA.

There was a discussion about this recently.

BUYER BEWARE!

Scott Novak
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